Folding Finger Spinning Fire Fans

Hi All, I'm a bit quiet on these forums, but in short, my names Charlie, and i design and build fire toys, the one i make for HoP is the folding fire fan HERE.

I have decided to start my own thread rather than continue to hi-jack an assortment of other peoples threads on fire fans.

What i have been working on for some time is a folding finger spinning fire fan, this has been a 2 year project (along with about 8 other projects I'm working on simultaneously).

It was set to be released on March the 1st, however about one week out from the release date i hit a sizable snag, the company that produces the springs I use on the fans could not physically produce the spring they had sent me samples of.

WARNING - Tech Speak
The spring needed for the finger spinning version of the fire fan needed to be almost twice as strong as the standard spring to fight the effects of inertia while spinning (or simply, they have to be stronger so the fan doesn't just close as it spins). The samples had been hand made, which produced a tighter coil with higher initial tension than the machine which was going to do the mass run.
/Tech Speak

So, that said, this design is delayed indefinitely until i can find a company that has a single point coiling machine, or can hand coil me 100m+ for a reasonable price, as the alternatives to not having a stronger spring make an expensive prop even more expensive (around a 50% increase in the price as opposed to a 15% or 20%).

I'll post updates here as they happen, as well as a sneak peak photo and maybe a video of the prototype i made with the sample springs.

gah, that's depressing news, Charlie. I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that you'll have success on that soon. Now I have to decide if I want to hold out or buy the original fans of yours.

le sigh

UPDATE

I have found a manufacturer and am testing a sample of the required spring.

Joy of all joys, if I have no further hold ups i should be able to get this project back on the road ready for release in a few weeks

Approx RRP on these is looking around max of NZ$250+GST (if your outside of NZ you won't need to worry about the GST) I will be doing everything i can to lower that figure though, my Target is $225-$235, as I am very much aware that to my knowledge these are by far the most expensive Fire Fans in the world... though perhaps one could say they are also the most advanced

An upgrade Kit will be available (initially) at the price difference between the standard and spin version so as not to disadvantage those who simply couldn't wait to get there hands on them

how does the upgrade work?

The upgrade will simply be those components which are different in the spin version, i.e. the center blade and springs. Will probably knock up some instructions to go with the kit as it requires complete disassembly then reassembly of the fans.

That looks really good actually. Do you have any footage of it lit? Would be really cool to see....

I have some footage tucked away somewhere, though none i can lay my hands on just now.

But here are two special sneak peaks in one photo for those following the development (I'm looking at you squid )



The above shows the 7 Blade prototype, and size/shape/placement of the prospective ring. (note that in this photo the ring is just resting on top of the centre blade, it will actually have a full hole in the centre )

The only assembled finger spin prototype was destroyed during Product Testing at Kiwiburn not that I mind, my philosophy is simple, if you can break it i didn't build it right, go have fun. Admittedly the death blow actually came from being accidentally danced on instead of danced with, funny stuff.

Haha, how did you manage that? I mean, I know that we NZ'rs can be clumsy sometimes... But to dance on it?

Keep us posted though, I'm interested, even if I'm more of a staffer... You never know.

I'm not sure how it was managed, but of all the sets of these fans that have come back to the workshop for repair, underfoot manipulation is the only cause of damage, normally i can straighten them out, but the prototype set were a write off.

The Staff/Fan combo can look quite cool (if I do say so myself)

I was briefly contemplating making a bullet proof stainless steel version, but they were going to be too heavy to be feasable, and one of the most common things i hear back about mine is how happy people are that they are light (around 350gm each)

So these are made of aluminium as opposed to steel?

Actually, just considering the fan/staff combo..... I suppose it could be interesting if you mounted the fan into both ends of the staff, effectively having 14 mini flames on it... Only thing I'd be worried about is getting them caught in my shorts.

Yes they are constructed of NZ Smelted and extruded 6060 T5 12x3mm 1.5mm Radius Edged aluminium

I would not recommend that with these as any drops or accidental ground touches would be catastrophic... For my staff/fan I had staff in my right hand and fan in my left and away I went.

If you like the idea of a mega-multi headed staff look up 'Dragon Staff' i think Gora or someone over on the European side has made some pretty cool ones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XarnEF2FuKY

Nice.... Smelted in Bluff?

Mmmm, the other thing with the staff/fan combo would be the speed drop...

Actually, that dragon staff looks dead cool. I think I'm gonna have to build me one sometime after I build my main one....

Ok I am officially psyched!! I'm following this progress with keen interest!

Would the thing be painted? I've a pair of HOP large fire fans, and the paint job has speckles of paint that will be harsh on the finger when spinning. I guess I could always sand them down, but just saying.

Also, I'm interested in the dimensions in terms of length, though if I can use the large HOP fans with 6-inch light sticks attached to them, this pair of amazing fans should be no bigger than the regular HOP ones right?

Can't wait for this product to come out and congrats again on having overcome the spring problem!

Hey There,

It will not be painted, though in future i am investigating powder coating them, it will be bare aluminium which has been filed and sanded on any rough spots to ensure comfort of use.

The dimensions of each finger/blade are 40cm long which is just under 16", the span when open is 80cm or 31.5". The wicks are small at 5cm or 2", but a 10cm/4" version is in development at the moment which will have a slightly larger span to keep the flames a comfortable distance from the hand.

Thanks for your questions

Ooh one last question: will you sell wickless versions of the fan too?

Yes it's in the works that I will be selling such a version, TBA if HoP will stock it though.

Charlie, I have to say that the fan looks fantastic, I have not had much experience with them myself, but I have looked into buying them in the UK and these are far superior to the ones available in shops over here.

Thanks for your feedback Grottbags

They are simply like any other folding fan with a bit of modern technology thrown in to replace the leather straps or chain, to me the design was the obvious step forward and evolution for them.

I think in time other designs and manufacturers may follow suit (imitation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery, and each time it happens i take it to mean my design is spot on), i am aware of one hobbyist fire toy manufacturer who has very closely replicated mine, however instead of using springs he has used stainless steel cable, which works in a similar way though the stainless will fatigue eventually and cease to operate as a spring (which is why I don't use it).

It's definitely a goal to have these distributed by someone in the northern hemisphere some time, so they can truly break in to the northern hemisphere market.

Just a quick update.

Problems with the new manufacturer, long story short, they are going to charge me twice the quote i accepted... le sigh.

Enter a thought that popped in to my head as i was running home from work today, the only issue is, does it look any good? Chris and I were not fans of running two sets of springs on their own bolts etc, but it occured to me that two springs could run off the same bolt, keeping cost down and actually making the fan function better.

What do you think? sorry for the bad photo quality, but you get an idea.

open: they look cool. I like the ellipse it makes. Kind of reminds me of an eye shape.

closed: looks bulky. Im trying to envision what several of them would look like together when they're all bunched up.

Its a minor gripe though when it holds the potential of keeping the cost down and improving function. Besides which, few folks will be looking at the hardware when the wicks are lit.

Do you think the bulk of all the springs would interfere with being able to slide your hand up the shaft and hold the fan in the middle?

No I don't think it will prevent that.

I'll try make a full fan like that on Sunday, need to source new bolts though as it adds around 2mm of thickness to the assembly.

Sneak Peek Photos, Video to follow.

These are some side by side comparisons for a single and a double spring design.

and a video; Shazam!

Looking good mate, as with all things simplicity is the key, and I am suprised that no one had thought of this design for a folding fire fan with spinning loop before!

Heh, whilst the design looks simple, there is a little bit of technology that goes in to making everything work as it works, as i've said before, this design is perhaps just the next step in the evolution of the fire fan, in time, other prop designers may follow suit, as there are around 3 or 4 design using leather tethers and 2 or 3 designs using chain tethers, but only one (commercially available) design like this.

Yep, Im convinced. Imma definitely buy this set when released. I also have to say that this is technologically the most exciting toy to come out since Dai's Buugeng.

Thats a big call there Squid, your support means a lot, hundreds of $$ and hours have been thrown into this new design (without going into how much went in to the original design *shudders*), so i'm very happy with it, and eager to see it take off globally.

Another update guys;

After some number crunching and soul searching i've decided a single spring is the way forward.

All that is left is to possibly adjust the span size as Chris quite rightly pointed out that the 80cm span may be too long for some people to spin.

Perhaps a S & M size are in order...

Ohh I am so excited. That video clenched it for me. Especially the drop test :P:P

Have slapped a tentative release date of the first week of July for these.

Still a few fine details to straighten out including a last minute revision of the spring setup.

I just did some research into Anodizing these black, would add around NZ$40/set... Really too pricey says me...

So if it's single-spring, would it have the problem of closing when you spin it, as you highlighted earlier in creating the fan? Also, how much cheaper would single-springs be?

Still excited for this!

The spin single spring is a stronger spring that the non-spring fan, so no, closing is not an issue.

As for price, it's looking like it will be very similar in cost to the non-spin fan,

Beautiful. I have a friend that would be interested in these.

Hello Faithful Listeners, er, i mean, Watchers, well readers...

Anywho.

To cut a long story short the release has been held up as i've been sent away for a month on course for my day job, fun fun... kinda.

The upside of the trip is i've had a lot of time to think over the design and have a number of additional improvements in mind for their eventual release, of which i'm not going to name a date this time as the last 3 times i've given dates it hasn't happened, so the next time i discuss their release, it will have happened ;o)

The priority for improvement on this design is to find a cheaper way to attach the wick, as currently, that's a very large cost due to the labor involved in stitching them on, but i am against wiring or bolting, or anything else that leaves a lot of metal exposed, but i have some other ideas which will be tested out when iget back in the workshop on the 5th of July.

Though other non priorities have been addressed like making them a little slimmer in the hand holding area, and possible pimping my workshop with a stamping/cutting tool to make the blades quicker, cleaner, and more accurate to produce, and therfore drop the price even further, though this is a US$1000 investment so will probably happen after i get a chance to assess how popular they are likely to become.

Ooh now that you're going back to the drawing board, I've got a question to ask: Is the fan going to be flat-ish at the base or will it be more like a 'V'? Cos flat-base fans are just a little weird to handle and spin (though it's probably an issue of getting used to) and fans that are flat at the bottom, in my opinion, doesn't looks as good when splayed out.

i.e (ASCII art attack!)

\ | | / ...looks weird. Kinda. Or maybe it's just my shitty
.\| |/ ASCII art
--- ---
./| |\
/ | | \

Also, in reply to the news of the delay of the fans:

=(

you know its funny you should ask that...

The team at HoP were quite interested in seeing the span drop from 180deg, or flat as you say, to 160 or 140 deg, I considered this also, but all of the NZ based owners of the original fire stuff fans were very much against that, which kind of swayed me to leave it as status quo... I am aware that every other fan, folding or not, is generally at 160 or 140, but it just seems that 180deg opens up some extra trick possibilities, though I wonder now if possibly offering buyers an option may be the way forward...

Just to let you know, Charlie, I fervently (as I do believe others too) check back on this page just in hopes that there might be an update or so. Like this is one of those instances haha.

Keep up the good work!



(pleasepleasepleaselettherebesomenewssoon)

Drum Roll Please?

Production on these fans starts Saturday the 10th of July

There is one last possible tweak i'm investigating with the wick attachment, details to follow.

Just a quick update again, attached is a picture of the new wick attachment i'm contemplating, it's stronger, will last far longer, and it's also quicker so will keep the cost down.

Under the rivet there is a brace which holds the whole flap down.

Shiny....

I really have no problem with a bit of metal on the wick as long as its not sticking out in any way. The rivet system seems to be amply tucked deep enough inside the kevlar, so it shouldnt be any problem for making skin trails or fire eating whatsoever. My only concern is, is there going to be a problem in removing the old kevlar when it needs to be replaced?

I've been really wanting go get my hands on fans with a much larger hole for spinning- in Kiew they had constructions where all four fingers fitted in so you spin around the palm directly. Starting and stopping is a merely a flick of the thumb away. Its really a lot easier to handle and you never have to worry about it spinning off your hand (which was a problem for me with the one finger holes Ive tried), but I realize that such a large hole for your construction is potentially not possible. Is this maybe something you've tested?

Really like the construction, definitly interested, and I really hope a 160 option is available

Thats good to know thanks entheogen.

There is pretty much a 95% chance of a 140deg spread now, 140 has the aesthetic advantage that when the two fans are evenly back to pack, you get 10 evenly spaced flames as opposed to 8 at 180.

Though if you want a custom one at 160deg this can always be arranged.

As for the hand sized spin run, this isn't really possible or practical on this design.

Woohoo! This ranks right up there at the top, next to Christmas.

I realized when you spun it, and stopped it with your thumb from a spin, that spoke kinda jerked a little. Is there a chance that with a more intense spin, that spoke might close even greater?

The spin hole looks fine. I think people will find a way to get around it by maybe having the middle finger in the spin hole and the other fingers might find a natural resting spot elsewhere. Yay for big hands. You know what they say about people with big hands!

That's right they wear big gloves.

Also, nice hat. And tattoos.

Hey Hexacoto,

Yes well spotted, I've decided to fit the spin fans with double springs still even at 140 to prevent that in the long term, as the springs do bed/soften over time.

I found another advantage at 140deg, it's actually possible to squeeze them closed in hand (with practice and perhaps bigger hands).

And cheers, the hat hides my new hair doo (or lack there-of), and the tattoos are a constant work in progress, hurts about the same as some fire eating tricks but leaves a prettier mark

Last few questions:

How easy are the fans to maintain? Given the mobile parts, how durable are the fans? Can they withstand an elephant doing the macarena on it? Are there any form of warranty/assurance on it? What happens when the springs weaken? Do we buy replacement springs?

I assume it'll be available through HOP?

Haha so many questions. Sorry to bombard you with them, but you had to be a genius and make these shiny things! =)

Maintenence is pretty much non-existant, all working parts are separated by 1 or 2 nylon washers to ensure wear and tear is kept pretty much to a minimum. an infrequent tighten of the main bolt may be required in the long run if the action is used a lot. This area requires the most accurate tolerance for happy operation, it spreads it's load over larger and more nylon to keep friction at a minimum.

These fans are designed to be danced WITH, not [i]ON[i/], due to their lighter construction they are not as robust to abuse as a normal fan, though they are also (within reason) easier to correct any bends if they occur. The reason they are more susceptable to abuse is when lying down they do not have a flat profile like non folding fans, thus the top/high blade undergoes a massive amount of stress when forced to bear weight in this manner and naturally bends, it's not really avoidable even an unobtanium or titanium alloy would not prevent this.

These come with the same warranty as any other prop supplied by me or HoP.

Yes HoP will be stocking these, and any other store you convince to contact me and do so also could get in on the action

As for springs, I have designed this product to have replaceable parts, and replacements are available by contacting me directly, when i get time i will produce a rebuild kit that will include an instructional DVD to help people get it right (this is still the one part of the manufacturing always done personally by my or under direct observation as it's critical).

Generally by the time the springs wore out on the original fans the wicks needed replacing anyway so the fans came back to me. I think the new style wicks will last much longer so spring replacement may be required on an annual basis or so, It's hard to say as there are so many variables for their life...

anywho ill continue this later, my plane is boarding

Hi Charlie, not to sound pushy, but the fans are not up on sale yet, both on HOP and your site. You reckon it'll come on by this month, because I'm anticipating to use them in September (already)?

Thanks.

Having a ring in a folding fan is awesome.
i would like to point out that Charlie is awesome.
that is all.

Heh, Thanks bender.

The current delay is that the welder guy i use broke his welder that he needs to weld this type of metal.

He's promised them by Sunday my time, if he pulls through, then i can start rolling out the finger spin fans next week, all the other bits are made, ready and waiting.

Okay So, UPDATEEEE

My welder fixed his welder


He's done enough for me to get about 10 sets built, which as soon as my day job (which hasn't given me a day off this month and has me working an average of 9 - 16 hours/day) allows, I'll get onto asap,

Thanks all for your patience, especially those with pre-orders!!

There are pre-order options???? Where?

Not on the HOP forum as that would be slightly commercial

Last Update!!!!