BP oil spill

Just in case it slipped your attention

however: 10 things you need (but don't want) to know about the BP oil spill

At the onset of the disaster I had made a personal declaration to boycott BP. Anger to the point of crying over the lack luster efforts to control the disaster and the blatant complacency that BP holds to safety in general. I stand fast with my choice to boycott BP and would encourage others to do so.

Thanks for the Link FT very ionformative stuff

triptician: it's too easy to blame BP alone.

It is happening IN OUR NAME... especially in ours - as fireperformers.

Boycotting BP at the gas pump will get you no-where. It's not as if BP uses its oil only at its own pumps.



[ed] on a sidenote: that exactly is which freaks ME out so much... helplessness any which way.

Woo hoo! Thankyou for that - I'll use that on my radio show tomorrow! Saves me a bit of research

boycott BP? what like the other producers are any different? its the roll of russian roulette that BP are dealing with a situation that could have happened to any other major oil manufacturer.

its like that idiotic chain email trying to rise the masses into boycotting X petrol station on X day, as if its going to make the slightest bit of difference.

all the primary resource industries are getting riskier because we have the push the limits harder to find new economically viable resources. mining firms are delving deeper into africa, and oil firms are going deeper into the ocean.

would the consumer ever be likely to pay more for 'ethically and environmentally' safe oil extraction, if such a thing could exist?

seems like it's all just finally coming together...

what? is this a masterplan from a combustable moose

We're scared up here in Delaware because one storm or hurricane, along with currents, will bring all that around Florida and up on our beaches contaminating the whole east coast and the Chesapeake Bay. None of it had to happen. I'm not sure what I'd call it, but it's not an "oil spill". With demand dropping domestically (which caused a gas price hike, funny yeah?) why they need to drill and exploit the resource is beyond me other than if they stopped they would be unemployed and not making any cash (god forbid a huge conglomerate fail because it would pass on the failure all the way down the chain) but enough is enough IMO.

I'm pretty sure they don't know what they're doing because nothing this insane has ever happened before, but it's no excuse. There are places and things humans were never intended to tinker with. Pretty sure this is one of them...

You are most certainly right. However slefish this may sound, it is the feeling of helplessness that, through my boycott, I hope to negate some of said helplessness. Let me be the first to say some of this feeling is born out of guilt; Guilt for how dependant I am on oil based products, and guilt for taking the end products for granted and not fully understanding the ramifications of when things do go wrong (although they are abundantly clear to me now).

Small actions on an individual level I believe ccan help. Perhaps I am going about things the wrong and you have put the situation into a different light for me. Perhaps the goal for me should be to limit consumption in general, something I have been working on, but now something i will be working on with a little more consistency in the future!

Totally agree we are all hypocrites

I'm glad that you guys started a topic about this on here. The oil spill has deeply saddened and disgusted me. Many different species of animals are being wiped out. What disgusts me is that even with this disaster, Obama just allowed for more offshore drilling in the Gulf. Below are a few links about how the animals are being affected.

http://action.defenders.org/site/MessageViewer?em_id=56681.0&printer_friendly=1
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/29/oil.spill.wildlife/index.html
http://www.truthout.org/ten-animals-most-risk-from-gulf-oil-spill59013

Besides doing things like boycotting BP, there's small things here and there that I think we can all do to help even if we're not able to drive down to the Gulf and physically be there to help in the clean up process. In my Etsy shop, I'll be donating $1.00 out of every sale to help save the animals affected by the oil spill. Find an organization and donate to help out, even if it's just $1.00. Some of my friends are having burner parties near me for the oil spill and are telling people to donate things like nylon, money if they can, hair, and fur, to help with the clean up. So you can be doing something fun with a large group of people, and still be doing something to contribute. My mom is part of a huge pirate community and right now she's organizing an event in July to donate money to 3 organizations who are helping with clean up and rescuing the animals. Those are just a few suggestions of things we can do.

What is that twisted attitude that a consumer would have to pay MORE in order for a company to use safer technology?

Why is it always on OUR end? (apart from me already paying more for products NOT manufactured in China, organic foods, etc.)

Is it as if (BP's) CEO'S or SHAREHOLDERS (which again are the general public and institutional investors, who at the end again act in the name of the general public) are some Alien race? Are they NOT living on the very same planet? With the same interest to keep it clean?

Why would WE as consumers have to put up with higher prices and THEM not put up with minor profits????

The safer technology might have cost BP (and subcontractors) as much as $ 500.000... I dearly hope they fry BP, Deepwater Horizon (and Halliburton)... you know how much BP makes in a month? I'm afraid that only at the time that company executives can be held DIRECTLY accountable (i.e. criminal charges) for safety lapses or decisions jeopardizing the safety of workers and the environment - only then we will see change.

As I see it, it is a long due wake up call for us all... I repeat: it's far too easy to blame others - or say "I burn fossil fuels recreationally (but at least I'm veg)"

I'd suggest all of us hypocrites to send a prayer to this planet, it's birds, marine lifeforms every time we light up.

[/rant]

Oh and I forgot to mention: It's all part of the big conspiracy... Clear evidence that this is a staged event is the fact that already a few years earlier in the movie "Knowing" they are showing an oil rig explosion in the Gulf of Mexico - so apparently the only question is: who blew it up?

CIA? or competitor Exxon? was it Greenpeace? NO! wait - of course it's been either Aquaman or Obama Sin Laden... [sp]

disclaimer: I request the valued reader to view above post with a truckload load of irony

Putting the oil desaster into a conventient location near you

yea - I'm soo not surprised that seem to have lost opinion on the topic the old dog has dun it again - warf warf

BP using Google to manipulate public opinion



I recently listened to a media report, that claimed CNN would fall behind in customer appreciation because it's not playing the emotional game but focuses on "news first"... Now I begin to understand what it means.

- Who would think the "blame and hate" game helps in anything?
- Who'd reckon that the other oil companies have a higher morale?

and in context of Dentrassi's post:

Would they be ready to put up a few cents more for better safety measures? I bet they will as of now. But I they shouldn't have to.

In yet another article in the "Huffington post" the author claims:



Well, apart from the profit attitude being prime on the list of American values, I don't feel that it's been "deserved" or "necessary" and dearly hope that the decisions taken now are not akin "pushing the response-ability out of our own realm and

INVADE BRITAIN!"

Facebook stalker


I agree. And is my view on the mining tax. And on a bunch of other things as well.

I think that one of the worst things we can do is get hardened to things like this, which is what is happening. Getting hardened to it means we stop caring as much which means companies can begin to get away with it. We have to maintain the interest!

Yo sweetheart - it was your decision to contain it there and it just wanted to spill over to HoP

Rouge, most people have the habit to retire their interest as soon as it involves self-critique and facing simple facts. It's SOO much easier to "just hate BP" for their actions... and be veg (thus holy)...

okay now - I boycott BP.. in Germany they are called "ARAL" ... now - will it be effective? most likely not - why? - because BP is selling their oil to other companies as well. will I fuel BP oil when fueling up at OMV, JET or free stations (SHELL being out of the question since the "Brent Spa" oil rig)? most likely.

BP details in Wikipedia

Now - WHO OWNS BP? - if you look at this

ownership by country/# of institutions/# of individuals

UK...................33..................7
US...................25.................14
Rest of Europe.......10
Rest of World.........7
msc...................4

This does reflect the helplessness we have today. We can't simply say: THE FRENCH, THE POMMIES, THE YANKS! anymore... the global network is so diverse that it is impossible to play this blame game (if you are not a retard). "Institutions" in this context means that these are banks/trusts/(retirement) funds etc... which again are ordinary people, who ask banks to invest their money in funds...

Maybe YOUR DAD or UNCLE or BROTHER "owns" BP too. Invade Britain! But Britannia is everywhere

Ride your bike*




*I realise that oil goes into more than cars. It's just a frustration of mine when people go all green about the house and do Earth Hour and talk about how good they're being for the environment but still drive for trips they could easily use another mode of transport for.

just popping in to throw this like out there.

[url= http://www.google.com/crisisresponse/oilspill/] http://www.google.com/crisisresponse/oilspill/[/url]
http://www.google.com/crisisresponse/oilspill/

it is a forecast for the movement and spread of the oil spill. it should be wrapping around the keys sometime in the next 72 hours.

If you live in a city that is great, that is not a reality from where I grew up or where I live now where people commute by car 30min-2 hours to work doing 55-65 MPH (don't want to know how long that would take on a bike LOL like 8-10 hours+ minimum?) or any people who live in a rural area (most of the US is rural land, then suburban, the minority is metropolitan).

There's a lot you cannot do on a bike like transport small children, do your grocery shopping, go any long distance to obtain goods (or insert any other routine essential like work/medical/appointments here) and return, etc. I think it only supports a very limited range of lifestyles practically when it comes down to it. Not to mention the handicapped and old (who rely on their ability to drive to make up for their lack of mobility).

Oh yeah and you'd need alternate routes (that in many cases don't exist and would need to be built) because it is illegal to ride a bike (or walk or even use a moped/scooter) on highways or interstates. Forgot that one when I posted which would box in the majority especially myself who must leave town for everything on a routine basis.
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As awful as what happened is I'm going to just say it once...

I see no need in becoming masochistic chastising ourselves for using products derived from crude oil or condemning people claiming/trying to be green for whatever reasons they choose (or to be vegan, normally has nothing to do with being green anyways, most I see are vegan because of ethical or religious reasons). Did any of us customers want more drilling to have more of a stock pile when consumption is at a low? I don't think so and if more people followed the news I don't think they'd see a need either. There is a difference in being green, living greener, and being a normal functional productive member of society but none match the "green ideal" being stated that could reverse the way society functions on a mass scale. If you have appliances in your house, electricity, any products that are mass manufactured (furniture, clothing, yes even bikes!) you have contributed plenty to the oil companies. Infact anyone who lives in an industrialized nation everytime they get groceries, anything basic goods for survival manufactured (corporate or independent businesses or down the chain through both like your local pharmacy as an example), or just mail a letter guess what? Oil (in some form) is being used!

/end rant

Really think about reality and how much good it does making judgments about scolding those who can't/don't live to an ideal standard that is literally impossible during modern times in an industrialized nation in general (unless we should all revert back to caveman life). This situation is heartbreaking to me, for 48 days a mishap from an explosion during the EXPLOITATION of a resource that WE'RE NOT RUNNING LOW ON AND DEMAND IS DOWN is the problem here, not the use of it in a responsible "waste not, want not" manner.

Just giving a different perspective on the big picture. I know everyone has great intentions and that's awesome, but some of these ideas are a bit much to say the least and the sentiment well, you know what I mean...

You're not helpless! Make the choice to drive a vehicle that uses alternative fuels or as Rougie suggested, ride a bike.



How this relates to what was said in the article, I have no idea. A misrepresentation. Profit is at the top of the list of every country's "values", if we are measuring them by corporate standards.



I'm not sure if you know FT, Yank is highly offensive to a lot of the people in the southern US.



85% of the US population is in the metropolitan areas. Over a quarter of a billion people, that could cut their unnecessary oil consumption in some way. I live in a rural area, and I am required to commute over 1000 miles week. I consume less than 5 gallons of diesel to do it, I KNOW it's possible to cut your fossil fuel consumption, no matter where you live.

I think we have wasted enough energy on the 'blame game'. A solution and way to repair this tragedy is the best we could hope for at the moment.

I have offered to sequester some of the reclaimed oil and tar from Louisianan in part of my pasture. I invite anyone to be part of the solution.(volunteer to spend your holiday picking up tar balls, encourage your hairstylists to send the clippings to the clean up, donate money... find just one way you can positively impact this situation, and do it!)

If we collect the facts as we go and learn from this, the mob should have someone to crucify and hopefully it can be prevented from EVER happening again.

RC, sweetness, I said "land" not population referring to square miles and even those metropolitan folks have to travel long distances if there is no work near them (all the people who take the train between Baltimore, Philly, and New York as one local example) will pass through non-metropolitan parts of land. What is your definition of metropolitan area? According to this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas Dover is a metropolitan area and I can tell you that it is not and everyone here commutes for the most part to do what they need to do. Many of these other small cities I can say the same for...

The available statistics do not include the differences between major metropolitan areas like LA, NYC, Philly, DC and small cities that do not have their resources (honestly less resources than major metropolitan suburbs) like Dover, Annapolis, Ann Arbor, Burlington, Lancaster, and similar sized places although they are listed the same just smaller. *doesn't like vague statistics in general*

You are 100% correct though and those small changes do count for a ton, I know I try even though I have to commute for everything. I was just trying to throw in a viewpoint accounting to the many people who have no choice on transportation on long, routine treks and to not discourage anyone who makes any small change to their routine.



Even the 15% (I'm pretty sure it's higher, but yay people who avoid the census LULZ [humor and lightening the mood is good I think] and the latest numbers aren't in yet) who don't live in those areas are a massive amount of people...

I couldn't agree more! Considering this is the first time something like this has happened ever I cannot imagine the challenge of trying to lessen the damage of this accident.

This is just the first time a drilling accident has caused a problem like this in the US. Similar accidents have happened elsewhere but would never have made such an impact in the media.
I'd also guess that it (from my knowledge of other incidents) has not been the most damaging to life.

This eco / human disaster started in 2006 after a drilling accident and has never been stopped...

I didn't know there have been any other situations of off shore drilling in deep water that have a high probability to spread through ocean currants spreading rampantly, do tell...

My fear of how this one is different related to what will happen (whether they can plug the leak or not) than anything I have heard of. Even with the amount currently when it spreads to major water ways and is picked up by the ocean currents it will spread much further than just the east coast of America, according to the map of currents it's next stop would carry over to Europe and the open Atlantic. So far wash ups have been spotted as far away as Pensicola, FL which is alarming. Hurricane season is in week one and every year the Gulf Of Mexico gets slammed with some big ones, hopefully some remedy will come about before any of those storms make an impact.

It doesn't make other accidents any less severe in any way, but has a rig out in deep water spewed oil for almost 2 months non-stop and how did they fix it in other circumstances? According to the news fixing this thing is one experiment after another.

Here is one possibility, not a projection or forecast:


I hope this doesn't happen, but if does effect the Delmarva Peninsula like you can see in the video I will go help because I can afford to help locally.

I know it's not deep water, but there was this one

I'm not arguing with you and if circumstances allow you to ride a bike and you own one that is wonderful, there aren't many where I can see it being practical "if you must be somewhere" or "you must be presentable", the elements are not always friendly. I don't like these kinds of judgments and whatever people are trying to do that is helpful and doesn't make them miserable I feel should not be discouraged. I don't know the situation of the people you know, but I know right now with 90 degree weather I can hardly take out the trash let alone ride a bike during peak hours of the day and when there was 3 ft snow on the ground almost all winter it was even more difficult. I don't know an adult who isn't a cyclist who even owns a bike...

I'm just saying while that might be a reasonable answer to some, to others not so much and there is nothing wrong with that and the good they do is no better than anyone else's efforts same or different. You know what I mean.

/end off topic discussion

Stout, I hope it doesn't take 10 months to fix this like that one. I'm not sure of how much more complicated of a situation this is on all levels, but I hope the fact the fix method they got to work in that part of the gulf (hasn't worked here on their attempt) isn't an indication it'll take that long to stop the leak. I am astonished that with such an incident in hindsight a plan of action was in place before going into deeper, riskier waters.

Those circumstances you described therefore clearly not coming under "trips they could easily use another mode of transport for"

I wanna come live where it's 65 degrees year round, mostly sunny, and clothes don't wrinkle (no sweat or B.O. either!). You know what I mean, can we try to not have a pissing contest for once? And look at all people as being different with different needs? I mean it Rougie (which I never called you because I hate when people give me an "ie" nickname from my real name BTW, but you prefer it which is good where I'm a one syllable kinda girl) even though you're the polar opposite of me it doesn't need to predict an imminent run around on semantics.

*extends hand for a shake*

Didn't you want to move to Texas?

@ RC: that's all you can extract from my posts?

The point is that BP is owned 50% by American institutions and individuals... Whilst many of the media report that BP is "a London based company" - indicating that (INVADE BRITAIN) the problem is not as much home made as foreign.

I do ride a motorcycle and as such get by far better mileage/ gallon, do have a trailer (tiny to American standards) for my stuff, for which I rent a vehicle to tow if I must. Whenever possible I resort to trains, rather than airplanes. But there still is a lot of room for improvement.

"Corporate Standards" exactly is the way of measuring which got us into this mess in the first place. Not indicating a culture clash here, but I would love to see "ethics" move back into the corporate world, before applying their standards as "ultima ratio"...

You lost the (civil) war... get over it.

@ EoN: Rouge now repeatedly said that riding a bicycle seems not an option where you live... ever heard of "j'ecxuse - j'accuse"?



Give'em their attitude, how 'bout that?

Fact of the matter is that we all do depend to some extent on fossil fuels (ever tried to light up your poi with olive oil )... we are not helpless and there is a lot we can do.

As to solutions:

In Germany (at least) fruit and veggies in the supermarket are marked for their origins. I choose German or European origins. As Americans you should choose American - or stuff grown in your state. Sorry - it might mean that it's not a Mango or Papaya every day...

Turn off electricity every time you don't use it. Also energy saving bulbs DO consume energy.

Talk about car pools, public transport with your friends and neighbors, talk about the (objective) facts and pull back the response-ability from "our government!!!" back into your area at home. Sorry - it might mean you loose some sympathy points...

Live what you preach and choose alternative transportation whenever possible... downsize your vehicle - if possible - and talk to your friends and relatives about it, consider and suggest hybrid or electric vehicles... Sorry, have them reconsider their SUV or RV... dare

MAYBE (in areas with snowfall for winter) even consider to buy another vehicle... to drive a light and low consumer in summertime and keep the other one for winter. Or to use the small one for shopping 50miles away and getting to work - and the other one for your long distance travels, tough jobs.

This is as much a time for self inflicted changes and actions as it is a time for changing attitudes and spreading the word.

Make it as if "it's cool to go green"... show encouragement for the new way - and disapproval of the usual drag.

Ah - preachertell again Stop being ridiculous, Tom...

likewise

Hellz yeah! In an air conditioned home which will be provided... But I have visited in the past and let me tell you I'll take dry heat over humid heat any day! You can at least breathe and not feel like you're suffocating in dry heat.



Um, FireTom, that's RC's quote not mine....

And you missed my point about bikes because it isn't about me (I don't own one and pretty sure I've forgotten how to ride one as I haven't touched one since I was like 12) or where I live, it's why people tend to need to leave their home to begin with and what condition they need to be in where they're going. That's why I made a joke and dropped it. LOL

You know I didn't want to bring this up, but you do realize we're one solar flare or gamma burst away from being wiped of the face of the universe and as evolution has taught us there is a vibrant age and extinction for several classes of lifeforms on that scale?

I'm not saying don't try to be nice to the planet as I try in many ways, but we only live once and you cannot take a U-haul behind you. I don't believe as humans we have a "purpose" and life is essentially meaningless until we place our own values on it, I think changing might make conditions more comfortable but in no way is going to change the inevitable fact that we all will live, we all must die, and all species will at some point go extinct and new ones will evolve. The earth itself could be blown to bits by many cosmic forces while we're on it or not at any second.

Just trying to be realistic, I don't believe in adding to problems that affect others, but there's a point to wake up and smell the coffee that we none will live forever as individuals, a species, or a planet. I'm not going to preach to people or try to make something cool because it's annoying and insulting, but when people see the impacts of their actions themselves and reflect on the personal implications they will react in a manner they're capable of and do something.

Life is a huge gray scale with very few absolutes, nothing you posted can change the situation of what occurred and if you want ethics in the corporate world you have to go do it yourself or blow a lot of hot air and be ineffective. But you would have to change all those things you think are wonderful to be accepted by the corporate world and clean up well. Is it worth it to you to try or would you rather just rant about them?

Just another way of looking at the puzzle and I endorse/encourage nothing in particular, another angle to the conundrum of samsara and transient phenomena.



When will people learn that Capitalism IS NOT SUSTAINABLE???

Like I said before in my last post, my friends and I are having parties/events where people buy tickets and all of the proceeds go to two organizations that we've found who are helping with clean up and rescuing the animals caught in the oil spill. Join Pirates For The Gulf on Facebook. That's one of the events we're having. We're trying to find spinners to perform at the event right now. Even though this disaster is horrible, we can try to do something positive. Complaining never got anyone anywhere. Parties are an awesome and fun way to get people involved and to help out.

A friend of mine is doing something similar, but for a different cause with animal rescue and she has had a very positive response. I'm in your area, send me a PM or add me to the facepage with the details and I'll see what I can do. I'm supporting my other friend's event in VA, but it's not until September. I look up the group/event page today.

Are you waiting for a spin game? Keep waiting...



BP's stats, which you posted, do not back up this claim.



Seriously! I am not sure where to begin spin doctor Tom. Which media? I recall you yourself being guilty of doing this very thing because it played to your argument.(ah humm, The Concord incident, which was total rubbish). This 39% are indeed, American people and institutions, "which again are ordinary people, who ask banks to invest their money in funds..."

As far as I can tell, the issue isn't as much about BP, Transocean, or Halliburton and their standards, as much as it is offshore drilling. You did after all post 'BP oil spill', placating the mass media's forgone point of view about where to lay blame. I might suggest a title change to further your argument about introspection.



You will find no argument from anyone here, unless you try to make one out of thin air.



Yank, is a colonial term, the colonist played 'Yankee Doodle Dandy' to the surrendering crown soldiers. The colonist came to adopt the playful name. Those whom were not colonist, never viewed themselves as such, and find the name as ridiculous as it was intended. It has little to do with the civil war. But I don't blame you for not having the sophistication to understand that.

Germany lost WW2, should it be fair to call all Germans Nazis applying this same standard? I feel the same about the term Pom. I don't feel that all people in the UK agree with Peoples(or Prisoners, have your pick) Of, Her Majesty.



Also agreed, It's exactly the same in North America, and of course, choosing US or North American produce first is a logical step, just as in Germany choosing German or European produce first is.

EoN is right. That was my quote and it had far higher context than you have taken it for. Crucify and mob(mentality) are in the deepest of sarcasm.

Is that enough extraction? Is the point of this post, what we should know about BP? Is it meant to evolve in so many contradictory ways? Are we trying to address the obtuse issues that brought us to this disaster? Is it to be more conscience about how our actions lead corporations to violate the environment in our names? And so on.....

Frost, it's a beautiful and effective thing your friends and you are doing. You should post a link to make it easier. Can anyone say collaboration? The wonderful RL MOD might be able to help draw attention to your cause.



Similar to my view. I think action is far more important than words, especially, when those words are stating the obvious.

Frost Dreamer and RC: just because I forgot to mention it previously - wow, good on ya for personal effort to contribute on a larger scale, helping to clean the mess up and getting people involved. Great stuff Chapeau.

EoN: If that's the case, grant me pardon for mis-quotation :thanks:

But frankly: which one of the two are you now up to? "We only live once and the planet is going to blow up and we're all going to be extinct anyway" or "be nice to the planet and try to leave a better future for our kids"? I'm often trying to balance the two myself - only trying to find out where you pivot.

PS: RC - this is boring (at least for me) as it is going again into that tit-for-tat-who's-the-smartass-now situation. Have it your own way then. Actually - if Germany would have won the war you'd use "Nazi" as a honorable compliment, not an insult - so spare me the bickering please. I introduce myself to Dutch people as "a Muff" and to Anglos as "a Kraut" - makes things easier not to identify yourself with a heritage you never earned.

As for the rest: I tried to emphasize that BP is owned by almost as many people and institutions originating in the US as in the UK... (according to the BP website) - thanks for making me aware that I'm horribly bad in manipulating public opinion by faking statistics. Of course - genius - these numbers still don't say anything about how many shares are owned by nationality - which would be the really interesting part

[ed] but if I would have offended you - as a southerner - then I honestly ask your pardon too.

Well FireTom, personally I'd put myself on the lower impact side of moderate in terms of sustainability. I lead a waste not, want not existence and conserve for financial reasons more so than ecological reasons. It just happens that being frugal with money and the essentials you need money for also lessens the impact on nature and brings a better future for starting a family in more ways than one.

I have a small car with good gas mileage/low emissions to do the essentials I fill up a maximum of twice a month (unlike the old guzzler may she rest in peace). Every time I use my car I accomplish all I can on the trip to and from the goal destination, never drive in foul weather, keep up with simple maintenance to optimize safety & economy, fill up the tank during the coolest part of the evening to prevent evaporation before sealing the cap.

I'd also rank myself as moderate on the scale because I do live in an apartment with utilities since it's all I can afford and manage with my lifestyle/priorities (not to mention having to move every few years) LOL, but without sacrificing comfort I eat mainly products grown and manufactured in a 100 mile radius, always take reusable bags shopping, attempt to produce minimal waste, and be conservative on utility use but not to save the planet. Instead I do these things to cut down on cost, clutter, to be healthy, and comfortable. No big sacrifices, but the choices lessen the carbon footprint in the big scheme of things and it's sensible and feels good in more ways than one.

Being responsible and considerate to our surroundings is honestly the path of least resistance I've learned from experience. If you slack off (littering, not handling your business, etc.) and the cycle includes others refusing to pick up the slack due to the same attitude it only comes back to hurt you, I prefer to nip things in the bud from the get-go and avoid the trouble that comes from shortcuts. I'm not going to make myself a slave to adhering to any impossible goal or idealistic lifestyle, nor will I diminish wonderful experiences fulfilled in a reasonable manner, but common sense (a trait not so common anymore) I'm a firm believer in and is how I choose to live.

So I'm moderate and conscientious for my own set of priorities that benefit myself economically and in terms of comfort, then after that my surroundings benefit a little by having less of a toll taken. I see nothing wrong with being sensible in the balance, the lengths some go I don't consider healthy or enjoyable for myself and what I see most others do makes me appear the "environmental" type locally and amongst my peers. Hope that's a good explanation.:)

*a touch off topic, but I tend to try to answer questions to the best of my ability*

FT it's boring for everyone... But you persist on the same path again and again. Do not make personally bias statements in a public forum if you are not prepared to be challenged for them.

There is such a thing as an opinion other than your own. I have every right to express the other side, if I please, and feel obligated to do so when I feel it should have voice, even if I don't agree. I would hardly call that tit for tat.

I have yet to even hear mention of blaming a 'London based company'. No one I have talked thinks one thing has to do with the other. Being London based is so irrelevant that it hasn't even been mentioned on any of the US nightly news. Where this overly presumptuous 'invade Britain' thingy of yours came from I do not know.

A heritage you have never earned, indeed!

I am willing to concede when you are.

Moving on then?

I think that the percentages do sum up the shares owned by nationality.

I don't think targeting BP is ethical, even if they have acted unethically. In the end, taking down BP does more harm than good, but they, along with everyone else involved, should be made example of to deter corporations from thinking they can sidestep the values, regulations and laws of our societies.

As far as taking responsibility for this, I feel little responsibility. It isn't a case of buyer beware, this may kill everything in the ocean.

I purchase petrol expecting that it is done as safely as possible to the environment and not at the expense to livelihoods or the future. I would rather think, it happened and, that, is the reality. My choices are, I could complain or be a proactive part of the solution, regardless, of how much fossil fuel I do or don't rely on. This oil spill will move into the Atlantic and on to Europe soon. Whom will we blame then?

I will forecast the future, if anyone likes, and I believe my prediction will be more accurate than a ruling magistrate in a criminal case.

We have every right to expect our governments to act on this matter. We rely on them to keep us safe and protect our environment. In this case, the US agency responsible for enforcing the standards set out by law, took BP at it's word. They should not have and they too should shoulder some of the blame.

Truth, RC speaks the truth.....

RC: So we're all the same legible to voice my opinion? Did you ever find me telling you to shut up? (at least not at times when you agreed with what I said, right?) However: where were you when I got called a Nazi? Double standards it is? [/ironic]



Dispersal of the oil could take years (at least they might give the fishermen a chance to earn some $$$ during fishing ban)

Some ideas to clean up the spill whilst

BP bosses family gets police protection...

I'm kind of split on the latter as I personally do support holding CEO's responsible for the damages resulting from companies operation - hence not physically. Declaring a witch hunt has still to be proven productive.



And you know what's so sad in all this? That - while we feel and display so much dissent for no other reason than grudges - we oversee the core issues and retard to being like little children closing their ears to the voices of reason.

I too expect governments to control and regulate companies, keeping citizens safe... but I would expect companies to do that in the first place. I'm certain that if BP was going down amidst all this it could set some decisive marker in the history of corporate consciousness.

I'm not sure why you would expect this from an individual, let alone a company with a bottom line, shareholders to appease, employees to oversee and pay, pensions and legally binding contracts to honor, taxes to pay, their own bills for rent, property, equipment, contracting...

The list goes on and on of course like all corporate responsibilities...

And you expect safety, ethics, and higher standards to move up on the priority list after a global financial crisis and during an American recression where bailouts and tax cuts are being tossed to those who help with the unemployment problem or were thought to be "too big to fail" and then failed???

I'm astonished your line of thought moves in that direction, especially before this ever happened (which was an accident no one could've predicted) it seems to make sense in a failing economy for a wealthy corporation to take advantages of perks by going "full steam ahead, provide employment" to tread water since demand for gas (people are driving less and having enough repossessions/foreclosures these days, along with job loss) has dropped, profits in general have dropped, stock value has dropped, but they still have to pay out their corporate bills including taxes...



Wouldn't you try to lessen your costs complying with criteria to benefit from tax breaks and stimulus money or driving up your profits and bottom line with your own strategies? BP has plenty of lobbyists so you know they have some tips on getting good with that type of program.

People do what they do because it benefits them, corporations do the same thing but it's more complicated and the stakes of "sink or swim" are far higher. I don't know how it is at all logical to assume anyone isn't trying to max out their profit margin (net worth has become self worth, lets just be honest) or how the first line of thought wouldn't be about how everything action and reaction would/could benefit them.

Let's just be honest that no one does anything without it serving their own purposes or without getting some kick back that makes what they do worthwhile in some way.

FireTom and EoN in contentious debate shocker.

Who'd have thought

Lulz, Durbs, that's a good one.

Just giving ye ol' 3 lbs muscle a little activity, no worries hon!

EpitomeOfNovice, here's the link for the Facebook group http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=103193559729807#!/group.php?gid=130653010279954. If anyone else wants to join, please feel free to.

With the amount of exercise it gets, I doubt it only weighs 3lbs

felt free

EoN: BP first quarter 2010 results are 5 BILLION $ (compared to 4th quarter 2009 that's a 135% increase!) ... not exactly a dwindling company wrenched from the global financial meltdown you would call it, would you now?

Right - and shareholders to appease (who just lost 15% in market value of their shares), employees to oversee and pay (and let getting killed - like in the current and previous Texas refinery disaster), last but not least pension funds to crunch (who were now affected by the recent loss of share values as well)...



According to some news reports already the "Bush administration allowed safety precautions to be circumvented"



Wasn't G.W.Bush one of the oil slinger boys of Texas? Maybe the American public considers calling him on this one as well, instead of putting all the blame on Obama.

Now these "unnecessary costs" are going to have consequences beyond measure. This incident could teach big corporations a lesson, like: "Don't compromise on safety - it'll cost you ... a heck more in the end!" Thus no ethical motivators (as they seem not to belong in the corporate world (hardly seem to belong in the human realm)) - merely financial incentives.

They should not forget in the future that they live on the same planet and share the same responsibilities as the rest... AND shareholders as well as employees should watch that attitude more closely.

I dearly hope that it's going to break BP's neck. We were prepared to pay more for oil already and this would set an memorable precedence for the right people involved.

Durbs, it's quite amazing that we even argue on the same side of the fence, isn't it? That really proves the world to be grayscale not monochrome Any British Propositions from your side which you'd like to share with us then?

Meh not really, I don't really see the need to debate stuff on the interwebs.

I think it's totally wrong the CEOs family are being targetted by hate-mail and threats, which in turn is costing the UK tax-payer to fund the police protection.
He may be an idiot, but that's not his family's fault.

I also don't think BPs first quarter report is that relevant, their 2nd and 3rd quarter may be quite telling though.

Other than that, it was a disaster waiting to happen.

I never said they were dwindling, just that they'd take advantage of the situation and it would effect their strategies and outlook/disposition in the midst of this climate (as further statistics would possibly back the probability when compared to other series of events and a time line). There is no doubt that a time of strife for some is a booming opportunity for others.

That's a good hardy-har-har for ya!

I have so many opinions and extensive lines of thought on all the points you guys have made including those of you whom have contributed to the topic by pointing out this is not the first time something similar has occurred. I wrote a lengthy reply and then closed the window loosing it. So forgive me if I skip the exchanges FT and to the rest, forgive me skipping quotes to keep you up with the line of thought.

I have mixed feelings on when and where the government should be allowed to intervene or regulate certain aspects of the business world. Why do business where you are expected to follow safety standards at large costs when you can go to somewhere such as China(luckily not an oil rich country) and skip those things? I do believe that at present we have close to a happy medium but there is room for improvement.

Every alternative to oil presents its challenges and for the time being still requires development to be effective. Which leads me to believe, this is the unfortunate price we pay for living, but we can still learn from it.

A shift in the corporate paradigm is a lovely thought but unlikely without drastic measures being taken and harsh consequences enforced for deviation.

I would hope that every parent, caregiver and teacher in the world is now pointing their finger at this example of our carelessness with the planet, complacency to change in the face of eminent disaster, social irresponsibility and the failure of the leadership to safeguard the future in exchange for their own personal gain.

I would also hope that we can give them another example to look back at, how we did all we could to repair the damage, and how we responded to situation and climate that led to this event, but most of all, the measures we took to prevent them from experiencing the same fate.

*rubs eyes* this has been three consecutive posts without personal sentiments in a row... wow - I guess we're getting somewhere.

RC - couldn't agree more with what you said. Drilling oil happens largely outside China and personally I would suggest imposing heavy taxes for businesses that skip safety precautions. The message should be clear: "you don't keep a clean safety record - you gonna fry."

The problem with pointing fingers though is, that we're at both ends of it...

Durbs - I'm split over the issue. Whilst I don't condone violence or the threat of it, I feel that families should involve themselves more in the business and not just skim the benefits. That this again goes on tax-money proves how short sighted people act, when getting washed away with their thought patterns.

As much as i enjoying lurking in yet another HoP soapbox competition, which heaven forbid that some one who actually works in the primary resource sector might get involved.... how bout a side discussion... what about the guys working on the rig...

article

some assorted trains of thought - some of which are my own and others arent.....

- Sue? oh come on! thats why you get paid the big bucks to work on an oil rig! if you dont want the risk, work in a call centre and get paid accordingly

- i know id feel pretty crap about causing one of the largest made-made environmental disasters in history... most engineers who work on the rigs i know are decent guys who want to raise a family, and ironically for their profession, take there family camping in the rainforest/go fishing for holiday... but its interesting what can happen in the corporate engineering machine..

- theres lots of discussions about accountability. unfortunately engineering is never 100% foolproof. mistakes happen - and no matter how many safeguards will go into to place, and how obvious the mistake seem afterwards, you will never have a foolproof process.
How many time does windows work perfectly? unfortunately in the primary resourse sector, the oversights can turn into monumental cluster-f***s as BP have clearly demonstrated not just through the incident itself, but the appalling way they have dealt with the situation.

- my personal opinion for this specific scenario, is that we are dealing with one of the deepest ocean drilling rigs EVER - and they only have a double redundancy safety system (meaning there is a primary failsafe, then a manual backup if the first safety measure doesnt work). If i was designing something on such a massive scale, i would ensure a triple of quadruple redundancy safety system. hell ive design quad redundancy systems for chemical processes on the surface of the earth, let alone 18000ft under the ocean.

- anyway all were are hearing is the bp press machine and the media press machine. it would be interesting to talk to the guys on the ground.

- i had 2 other points, but im hungry and my fingers are sore, so need to make a laksa stat!

**disclaimer** this post was made while sitting on a plastic chair, no doubt refined from petroleum products.

Dentrass: Right that! The mind-boggle is that individuals in private life actually might be completely sweet people, yet in their profession might act devastating to society and environment. I personally did know people working in the slaughterhouse as butchers... they go home to be dearest fathers and excellent buddies. I met people working on rigs... they even have a nature conserving attitude...

- Sue: You don't want to get sued, run call centers not oil rigs.

- Accidents: If you're running a company with multi-billion dollar profits handling some of the most polluting substances on the planet... why don't you care for backup plans, before the crap hits the fan? You already do have safety devices installed BUT - as you already consider the fan being hit by crap and knowing that engineering is not 100% foolproof - why don't you care for scenarios in case they don't work?

Exactly: personally I'm not as much concerned that it happened at all. I'm grumpy because BP has not dun its homework, leading to death and devastation... that's not a AAA+ company in my eyes.

- unfortunately we rarely hear the people on the ground... not on this one and not in the Israeli piracy act. It's all opinions based on available informations. And the media is reporting news they can sell to people... One reason why I find "hatred" to be completely inappropriate.

............. Laksa? *drools on floor*

just another

go solar

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10276652.stm

I hope you and everyone else applies the same thinking to the CEOs, Politicians, Lawyers, Shareholders, Investors, and separate what people have to do for a living from their individuality and parts of their lives and thoughts no one outside of themselves (even at times inside of themselves) we (they) will never know. A job is a way of making money, it is not a reflection of who a person is or their personal views on anything regardless of industry.

People are people.

Sign at a local BP station

^^^
ROTFLMFAO

I use to work at one years ago and remember that sign! Little did they know...

Poje - I can't see that sign

EoN... I do apply the same thinking to all beings. Now: why does a CEO get more $$ than an engineer on a oil rig? Why does a pilot get more $$ than a cabbie? Would you apply same standards in liability as you apply in payment?

Absolutely not and I honestly don't have the time to give a 101 level lecture on economics let alone a 200+ level one on international business. It's pretty clear the guy signing papers and making decisions is the sole determiner of if that engineer gets paid or even has an open position and that's just the tip of the iceberg,

Money doesn't just magically appear, nor do job positions, demand for product, so on and so forth. That's all common knowledge so what does that have anything to do with seperating individuals off the clock from them fulfilling their obligations on the clock?

In the end even the top of the chain has someone or many to aswer to. Neither you or I am an expert in all of the workings and those who are have their advise ignored on a frequent basis. One thing is a fact, you have no job or paycheck or criteria or benefits or anything without those who can provide it to you, those who cannot do a good job at it (regardless of how they provide) will pass on that misfortune and vice versa. That's life in our modern world and it existed like this in ancient times and it can be seen replicated in nature as well. It just is...

Like all that has happened the tables do turn every now and again, just like everything else!

*I gotta load up my car, be back Monday most likely*

I can hardly wait for when you finally got time to educate me on economics and international business...



The BP oil spill is not an isolated event... maybe the spill is but the seepage is happening every single day.

I repeat: this is a wake up call!

Suddenly the issue was brought into (y)our very backyard... the anger and fury Americans (and the rest of the (western) world) feels towards BP today has been that of indigenous people for decades already.

Does this mean indigenous Americans feel twice the disappointment?

As a primary industry safety supervisor (coal mining in my case, but I suspect the principals are the same), I find it interesting that there's a whole bunch of finger pointing and blaming the CEO and the higher ups. OK, apparently BP has ignored advice that the pipework was inadequate for the job, but here's the thing - if that rig was working where QLD legislation applied, under any primary industry act or workplace health and safety act that I can think of, the workers not only have the right to down tools until it gets fixed, they also have the *obligation* to down tools until it gets fixed.

I'll qualify that by saying that the legislation I'm working under is the Coal Mining Safety and Health Act 1999 (I can hear Puk groan from here with that one), the Petroleum and Gas Production and Safety Act 2004, and the Workplace Health and Safety Act 2001. I don't know what a US offshore rig comes under, but if they don't have anything similar in law, perhaps it's about time it started.

RC: ask them - you're closer up than me ;)+

Eera: that's quite an interesting point and I'm guilty as charged. I turns out that every body is really having a share in this.

Right now we might face the scenario, that this leak is to continue for months - if not years to come. Rumors go out that the oil starts leaking through the seabed (and maybe BP's CEO knew of this). IF that is the case, then as RC stated: we will see this oil up until the coasts of Europe and it might even exceed the Tchernobyl nuclear disaster in damages and consequences.

It might become one of THE biggest environmental disasters witnessed in our lifetime.

FT: They're no more disappointed than any other group of people in the fabric of American society. I live inside the Chickasaw Nation, they exploit the resources all the same, including the oil rich deposits of south Oklahoma.

Eera: The US has so much legislation concerning oil drilling safety that it is difficult to even sort through. The US justice system is a miasma of red tape and failure agencies. Workers could whistle blow and strike citing poor safety, but it would have no immediate affect, if any at all. The workers would be left redundant and the company would find people to replace them whilst they combat the allegations with never ending litigation.

The agencies charged with enforcing safety and regulations are corrupted. It's sad that the companies will do anything to increase their profits and that these agencies are necessary. But the failure is firstly the corporations' involved, secondly the entity charged with enforcing these regulations.

As FT said, this is nothing new and it is a wake up call. There should be larger consequences for the corporations and for the government entities responsible for enforcement. I suspect there will be, from here onward. For now, oil is a necessary evil that can't be done away with.

BP has stated it will take full responsibility and pay all legitimate claims. The outcome of this claim remains to be seen. This disaster happened when it could have been prevented. It happened under BP's watch when it could have easily been any other oil company operating in the offshore drilling sites around the world. In BP's favour they have, so far, taken responsibility and have been attempting to clean up the oil. Is it PR, guilt, fear of far reaching repercussions or responsibility?

No matter what the case is here, part of the outcome for BP and it's figure head is being on the receiving end of the criticism and the blame.

RC - there's always that argument that whistleblowers will be made redundant in every industry, but the legislation I'm familiar with goes on the talk about the obligations of the suppliers of plant (that's pretty much anything from the derrick to the earplugs, it's not a term restricted to big machines) - they have an obligation to ensure that they are supplying plant which is fit for its intended use, in this case it clearly wasn't.

So you have people working on the rig who knew something was up, you have people in charge who knew something was up, you have the operators and ownders of the rig who knew something was up, and you have the suppliers of the plant who presumably knew something was up, and yet no-one said "that's enough, down tools"?

I've seen mines which produce 12 mTa coking coal closed due to one section feeling unsafe; not through whinging about wages or industrial action, but simply because the mechanical fitters were finding taht at night they couldn't see where the haul road was due to bright lights from the CHPP and there being a few near-misses with haul trucks. Under the CMS&H Act people have a personal responasability for safety and can be prosecuted and jailed if they don't discharge their obligations, and that makes individuals sit up and take notice and be proactive (under Workplace OH&S it's the company that gets fined, not the individual, which is why construction sites suffer from so many accidents compared to mining). Maybe it's that personal responsability that's missing in this case.

Here's a thought or rather a handful of observations - I think it comes down to a question of scale:

I was thinking that here in NZ our companies seem more respoonsible and fair with the workers having much more say in what happens in terms of safety etc. But then the more I thought about I realised they're not necessarily any better morally than any other company, it's just that our companies are so much smaller than these big corporations that you hear being quoted for this kind of thing.

I mean NZ based Fonterra had a big problem with their baby powder and some of the company people went to jail for it - admittedly they were some of the key people in China not kiwi's but it was a start and the kiwi's were certainly under the spotlight.

More recently Cadbury started using palmoil in their chocolate in NZ and many people were outraged and switched to Whitakers forcing Cadbury to go back on this practice. While Cadbury is a reasonably sized company, not just NZ, this was a noticeable dent in their NZ business to force the u-turn.

BP is so huge that it would take an awfully determined effort by an awfully large number of people globally to have the same impact. That being said it is possible that a regional change say of everyone in Florida switching to another petrol supplier would be noticed - that's still an awful lot of people, and while it might be noticed, would it be enough for them to make any real changes?

The trouble is that in order to plunder the earths reserves of the expensive stuff we "need", these days it needs huge resources and the kind of money that only a large corporation can afford. Look at oil, gold, diamond etc mining. Mostly all the "family" businesses trying to do it can't and they have all gradually merged/bought out/absorbd such that it is now the domain of the mega-corporations. When a corporation and the mining operations are that big, the stakes become very high and it also becomes necessary to involve the local politicians to get things done (legally or otherwise). So undoubtedly along the way, strategic alliances are made and power/prestige is attained. As time goes by this spreads and the politics becomes so entangled with the business it is hard to know when one stops and the other begins. And I don't mean to imply that this is necessarily corruption - if there is corruption it just adds another dimension. Would anyone dispute that American foreign policy is determined without input/direction from corporate interests? And not just America - it's just that the media makes it more visible there.

Solution? Ban corporations and stick to "family" businesses?? It might make companies more socially responsible, but you wouldn't be able to achieve the expensive things. Maybe that's ok though too - go back to a tribal kind of era finding other ways of doing the things that the expensive stuff provides. That would however mean no more techy gadgets as a family business wouldn't have the scale to create the ever increasingly powerful silicon chips that make it all possible (for example).

I rather think we have become too accustomed to our little luxeries to contemplate giving up such a life.

So if this kind of occasional event is the price of progress, maybe the best we can hope for is that corporations are still made up of people and people are still "human". As long as there is enough public opinion the feedback loop to control their actions is there. The question is really how much public opinion does it take to force a change in a corporation? The bigger they are, the more it takes, but also, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

I assume that the weight of public opinion will fall on BP as time goes on. There will be legal things and there will be commercial things. Some people will say "they're too big, we can't make a difference" but if enough people felt that BP had acted irresponsibly they actually could make a difference. I guess though that while there is enough people that think this is a terrible thing that has happened, probably the largest percentage of them are simply of the view that it's a terrible ACCIDENT and are not yet of the opinion that it was criminal NEGLIGENCE, and therefore not worthy of action to teach BP a lesson. If it does emerge that there was negligence involved I suspect that the public would be galvanised to take personal action (eg boycotts) that would be felt and force change.

George, in modern mining terms they no longer recognise the word "accident" as everything is preventable; it's "incident" now.

Re the point about getting the pollies involved. Any new venture takes a massive long time to get off the ground, I'm not sure the general populace realises how much effort is involved. One of the mines I'm involved in developing right now has a history going back to 1984 of continuous studies, environmental impacts, feasabilities etc. High impact activities don't simply involve getting a lease and rolling up with some big yellow trucks. The time that it takes to actually get a venture off the ground entire governments come and go.

While the idea of family ventures is nice, the costs are abslutely prohibitive for a reason; efficiency and personal safety. An exploration rig costs about $18,000 per day to hire, plus the costs of the logging, sampling, ash quality, packer testing etc on top of that. A 400m exploration hole takes roughly 12 days to drill, you need one every 50m to model your seam so you can work out the spacing of your chocks, where the seam actually goes for your longwall, how much space you can give between seam and country rock etc. And this is assuming that phase actually pays off and isn't abandoned like nine out of every 10 ventures.

I suppose we could go back to the old family groups doing board-and-pillar mining with a pick, but the fact is modern techniques are increadibly safe to the extent I can name every single worker killed in the QLD coal industry for the last 5 years, as every death makes news.

And for every death, someone is going to jail for it, which is why it's so safe in the first place.

Anyway, I think I digress...

Nope - I think you're helping prove my point - I just didn't say it very well since I'd already said too much! I wasn't seriously suggesting it was feasible in this modern world to have small companies doing those major things so we have to put up with large corporations for such ventures.

And the best we can hope for in these large corporations is that people are human.

... and there exactly is the point: in remembering people who run these global mega-corporations that they still are fellow human beings and by no means above the law.

But at this point I doubt that anyone is going to jail as a result of this disaster.

of course people only complain when its in their backyard, despite the same happening all the world.

nigeria and oil

thats why although compassionate to suffering, im a little cynical when the USA gets up in arms about yet another disaster (be it natural or manmade) that has been happening in non-western countries for ages...

Careful Dentrassi - you may get accused of spewing poison The spill will go on for months - but what about the decades of spillage that happened outside "our backyards" for decades?



Saying that working for a company - whose policies goes against your own ethics - may be the only job you get (IMNSHO) is a lie!

It's the same lame excuse as if a German SS soldiers who worked at a concentration camps claims that "he followed orders". It is a lie! And I don't buy it anymore.

You work for a pollutive company/ industry, you're part of the problem, you're corrupted by money vs. ecological sanity. You're either completely ignorant, helplessly optimistic or plain stupid.

You work for the industry, you better admit that you either don't give a frickin damn (which is okay) or you have the whistle ready 24/7 and stay at risk to get fired over it - because all the rest of us depend on YOU.

Needed to vent this [/rant]

Or simply supplying a product that is in demand because of the end user; you and everyone else.

Seriously, take a look at what's around you, how many things can you see that are not the end result of the extractive industries? Just stretching out my hand I can touch stuff the result of mining iron, bauxite, coltran, gold, lead, silver, zinc, silica, lithium and ilmanite, processed by the petrochemical and coking coal and energised by pulverised coal dust injection.

And that's just my mobile phone.

*high five* I love people who just tell it how it is because it's the truth. In the end everything is everything when it all comes down to it and if we all broke down all the components involved in us living day to day in industrialized nations this picture would become more and more clear to many. We either go prehistoric or accept things for what they truly are.

*happy to be an absurdist and not get bent out of shape over things out of my control, providing my own purpose to the journey and accepting the meaninglessness of existence to make the most of being here on earth*

not wanting to make what they did ok in any stretch of the imagination, but studies, research and history have taught us that we would do the same thing in this situation as the German people did.

its easy taking the high moral ground sitting in an armchair.

ahh ive missed you firetom



err yes. precisely. that was my point about my previous post...


yep no disagreement there. Ive never encountered a policy in my firm that goes against my ethics. Its not as if we are like the eco-villians in captain planet you know. but then again, australia has some of the stricted industrial environmental standard (and repercussion for infringments) in the world. If i was working for a nigerian based oil firm on the other hand...


ok, so i work for an ethical firm, in an industry where there are some dodgy practices in other locations on the planet. does that make me the devil?


i think its pretty clear i do give a damn


yep. no problem there. ive never had a problem raising environmental, health, and safety issues.



too right you do. i was at an outdoor party the other weekend when a hippy laid into me, because i make no secret of my job. Its funny being abused by a hippy sitting in a plastic chair, under a plastic tarpaulin, with aluminium tent poles, drinking mulled wine cooked on a gas burner in metal saucepans, with a massive nylon and fibreglass tent, wearing polar fleece, listening to electronically produced music, projected out by a 5kw speaker system (powered by a generator), all of it trucked in from 500km away by petroleum and diesel vans, and watching firetwirlers spinning with aluminium/kevlar wicks dipped in shellsol d60...

you get my drift. Life Cycle Analysis is great for revealing hypocracy.

you can strap yourself to a chain fence, or sit in a comfortable chair and rant away on various internet forums about how horrible industry is and how THEY must fix it. Or you can accept responsability as a consumer, and attempt to change things from within.

last project i worked on i worked out a way to save 4 million m3 per annum of water for the 15 year life of a mining plant. We also worked out a way to have no tailings dam. No waste. Energy and Water going in, metal oxide coming out, and no other waste.

happy with what i do? damn right im happy with what i do. I sleep comfortably every night knowing ive done a hell of alot more that 30,000 idiots whose idea of environmental action is to join a facebook group.

Vent away my friend! that was Discussion is for!!

You know i work in similar industry . And youd be surprised by how many oil rigs are unsafe .

And bp should of had soo many plans of what if and we should do. Instead of guessing and trying something after the event .

@ EoN: it's quite ... not my approach falling for marketing arguments. BUT in case that we will have to continue accepting highly pollutive industries in order to maintain our lifestyles... I choose... guess... another lifestyle. Because IF continuation of this lifestyle means that we loose the very foundation on which we live on, then it's quite pointless to continue cutting the tree we're sitting on. Wouldn't you think?

This is not armchair politics - this is about demanding that industries work clean (which they can, if they want/ have to)... "higher prices"... ? Maybe as much as "lower profit margins"?

@ Woodland Apple: not quite true. These studies (however applicable they are in this case) show that many - if not most - people would do the same... maybe through raising awareness and compassion we'll be able to come to a world full of "Schindler's and his kind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_who_resisted_Nazism). [/pipedream]

@ Dentrassi: re



How could it? Your job turns you evil, if you look the other way or commit crimes against humanity or ecology. If you (ethically) work for a company with unethical values, you may have to reconsider (IMHO), raise awareness within the company and to your superiors - and maybe drop out, if nothing changes.



completely - the one and only reason for now that we can communicate is based on fossil fuels. And besides: I'm proud for you! well done. Apart from that it's all about adjusting your lifestyle (for which reason I gladly missed out on the Fusion festival last WE - ranting to the organizers that IF they would not give fireperformers any incentive, AT LEAST they should provide them with high grade fuel to reduce environmental impact.

I am sick and tired of companies (or venues) who are "willing to sponsor (environmental) projects" (and use them as a marketing byproduct) to clean their slates. Which is why I rather declined offers of people for (ad)sponsors to the InJuCo.

IF ANYTHING - reduce the impact you already have. No need to fix anything, if you don't break it in the first place.

@ Puk: completely! They should have worked out a plan LONG TIME AGO... and not just work out a plan but have it TESTED!

I hope they take them apart and changed my stance: BOYCOT BP! Teach the shareholders and CEO's a lesson they won't forget. (Allegedly JP Morgan owns almost 30% of BP - which is misleading, because JP Morgan is only owning it on behalf of "ordinary" people)....

We *cough* or those holding funds *cough* need to get more aware of what we spend our bucks on - and who works with this money.

or we can look at things like the Stanford prison experiment wiki linki to get a much better understanding of how people really act.

perhaps read Ross and Nisbetts 'The person and the situation' or
'Does high self-esteem cause better
performance, interpersonal success, happiness,
or healthier lifestyles?'
by Roy F. Baumeister
to see how successful manipulative changing of character can be, like you are suggesting.

Maybe now take a look at the article "boot camp deaths" by Gregory D. Kutz, to see the repercussions of these actions.

Im not being too argumentative on this one, my point is making a broad statement like "raise awareness and compassion" or "personal development" not only simply does not work, but can cause harm.

I don't buy into marketing ploys, but it's beneficial to look at the reality of the big picture. A few hundred thousand consumers boycotting or changing their ways can't make a dent when there are millions and millions of people who still provide companies with plenty of business knowingly or otherwise. If you have the ability to use a computer with internet access think about the long chain of events where if you did boycott intentionally you probably are still funding a huge mega corporations with ties to others. It's not just about fuel, but about manufacturing, utilities, transportation, maintenance and up keep where so many support business they don't even know about.

I can't really believe your lifestyle and levels of consumption are much different than my own if you have electricity, running water, mass manufactured goods or handmade goods made with mass manufactured equipment, if you buy groceries, if you travel...

The only people I would even listen to that argument from I have a low chance of ever meeting because they live in a tribal culture that hasn't been tainted by invasions, outreach efforts, or government barter programs. No matter how much we try, intentionally or not, we are at a state of human development where everyone plays a part in huge things without their knowledge. If the people had the power to over take the minority which are the wealthy business people and such don't you think we'd have incentive to utilize the power for our own benefit to put them in their place and even the playing field? Like without an accident or some horrid event to motivate us to take control of ourselves and who is truly controlling us?

If your answer is "Yes" why hasn't it worked and if your answer is "No" think about why...

As admirable as the intention of making change is, the reality of such change actually coming about and the realistic numbers and amount of deregulation required to make it at all probable I know is not going to happen in modern culture.

I hate capitalism, globalization, and regulation because it has stripped away the importance to the individual and has also made more hopeless struggles and catch 22s of the human condition that are all unnecessary and based on an "individual's" bright idea to come together and make a "productive society". Too bad so many way back when were easily conned, and now in modern times it's taught in such gentle polite terms very few realize they're doing wrong.

Funny huh?



If I had to count the fear factor downfalls of this approach I wouldn't come up with what half of those who put regulations into place would come up with. Regardless accidents will always happen and will never be appropriately planned for when entering into uncharted territory.

BTW I didn't make the armchair politics statement, just for the record.



This level of awareness would probably do more to piss people off and make them feel hopeless/care less and give up more so than it would produce positive change. It's all one big vicious cycle but so is life! Need oxygen to live, but it's a corrosive so therefore we die.

I'm not trying to argue, but really there's a balance to everything and even with the best of intentions terrible things happen... like wars... I'm not for a moment going to give any lifeform more credit or value than my own be it a human, animal, plant, planet, or molecule of air, it shouldn't be too hard to understand why even if it's just that the thing I hate wasting most is my own effort!

------------------------------------------------------

On to new updates this disaster has caused one suicide in the gulf by a fisherman scared about his future financial impact (it's sad, but I'm not going to judge and understand why he made that choice) and on top of that hurricanes from developing storm systems have become a reality which will put a halt to containment efforts along with spread the mess.

I didn't see anyone who has updated these two things being shown on the news so I thought I'd add it.

(my previous post was written @ 6am... )

WA... so you say we're doomed as mankind is cursed by the innate evil...

Thanks for the links - I'll not go into all of them in detail. But I guess I get what you're trying to put across...

Stanford Prison Experiment (as well as the Third Wave for that matter) are example of how to bring out the worst in man. You feel that it's the same as working for a petrochemical/ nuclear/ mining/ biogenetic or any other industry with highest potential of impact on man and nature? I'd partly agree.

I'd like to point out that the other side of the medal exists as well and that extreme situations also appeal to the lighter side of people. It depends.

Why now - if this thesis are universally human - people volunteer to clean up. Why did people go to Haiti and tried to help there? Why do people donate money to organizations - hoping to make a positive difference?

I'm far from falling for the marketing of 'evil'..

[edit] on second thought



you may be right... :madrant:

To look good, to impress others, for their reputations, to gain power, to gain admiration, to play a part in controlling others, to make others indebted to them, for opportunities based on character to be offered, to push their products and innovations, free publicity...

Do I need to continue?

[le sigh]

That's a joke right?

Even a 10 year old could point that shortlist out, like people were born yesterday. All the showboating and ad space taken up by missionaries and humanitarian/special interest groups asking for money and we're supposed to think their intentions are pure?

Think again!

You really want me to believe people do these things strictly for the good of others with no other perks or rewards? Wow, I don't care whether someone thinks it'll get them into heaven quicker, will look good on a resume, or are trying to purify their own misdoings (I'll leave cult like behavior, control, networking, and financial gain out of this one) it's still for selfish motives they are all different flavors of the same evil.

Good one! Yeah, denial is totally not my scene buddy so I'm going to leave this thread be in the name of saving on my electric bill to be nice to my wallet which benefits me a great deal (mainly my grumbly tummy)... Along with lessening my impact on resources during a heat wave!

Everyone wins, including me by having a fun social gathering with entertainment to go to while doing something that makes a friend happy and I take the word of others that proceeds help creatures by funding those to come to their aid...

How is that confusing? Pretty straightforward if you ask me...*so baffled*

Well, at least I don't front

No not really, just saying that problems wont get fixed by trying to change peoples personalities, as we are creatures of habit that are highly influenced by the environments we are in. There is no point trying to take a high moral stand when in all probability we would do the same in the same situation.

In not preaching any sort of solution (I agree there is a problem), just saying that the solution is not going to be found by focusing on character change in people, as this does more damage than good.




The standfrord prison experiment was actually designed to prove that Americans were different than the Germans and the Russians. That the atrocities committed were as a result of an unaware and I guess you could say 'evil' culture. That a persons upbringing and moral compass can be different when coming from a more compassionate or enlightened environment and culture.

The experiment was intended to demonstrate mans capacity for good in bad situations. yet what it does show is that it is not the case, a good person put in a bad situation can do (and has been proven to do) bad things.

The boot camp deaths article I mentioned is about the avoidable and totally unnecessary deaths of people in rehab and troubled youth programs. deaths caused by good people trying to do good things using the misguided belief that problems in society can be solved by changing peoples character.

Im not suggesting humans only have a propensity for evil, you are absolutely correct that there are good people out there doing amazing things. I am just trying to show that by making character change a focus in solutions does not work, and by focusing on it actually causes more harm than good. and that is all Im trying to say.

Epitome,

reading your posts you are right and yet so absolutely wrong at the same time.


hard to believe isnt it? but it does help if you actually try to do good for goods sake yourself...then it gets easier to understand
just butting in to point out that as a christian, good deeds DOES NOT get you into heaven. In fact, if that is your intent then that is the way to MISS OUT in going to heaven
Im so glad then, that you did leave them out then

my my, such a pessimistic soul. So quick to judge peoples motives and quicker still to speak on behalf of all the peoples of the world

That was just satire hon, you read into it in a way I never intended. It was sprinkled with little bits and pieces of the darker side of "good doing" meant to be read like a stage piece displaying the paradoxical nature of interpretation of good and evil.

I never meant it to be read as the only way, but the way that many people do think and is commonly spoken of. I was just displaying the opposite of what FT stated because people do good things very often for selfish motives, of course I believe there are good people who do things out of the kindness of their hearts...

however when some know publicity or credentials are at stake or simply bragging rights/"keeping up with the Jones'" I'm not naive and don't immediately judge in favor or pureness/selflessness.

None the less, don't people who simply like to give have a natural payoff by enjoying that? They surely aren't all masochistic even though that would be a payoff to masochists right? I know I'm not a pessimist, but I am a realist who is pretty sure all ends of the spectrum benefit some how. I do good because I believe in karma and don't wish to over complicate my life with the repercussions of bad, but I do admit that I benefit from that mentality in many ways not making it absolutely "good" in the purest sense of the word and am comfortable with that.

How is that wrong and anything more than being honest (technically a "good" trait) about an observation of self-awareness along with observations of what people say and their unspoken actions?

Just out of curiosity, how far down the foodchain does this "you work in Extractive Industries, you are EVIL" thing go?

The directors and senior executives are evil, OK, what about the owners of the companies, do the shareholders count (1/4 of all Australians). The people directly driving haul trucks, draglines, longwall drillers, OK, they've sold out and are happily destroying the environment for $120,000 a year, what about the employees of CAT, Detroit, Terex, Bucyrus, Euclid, Hitachi and other heavy machinery employees, what about the people in Bridgestone making the tyres?

The cleaners of MAC camps and ESS, they're solely there to service mining, and the cooks on site, the people supplying food too?

Where's the line drawn?

Personally I find it vaguely insulting. I'm in mining because I enjoy the work; I get paid the same whether I'm doing the footings for hospitals, ferry terminals or coal handling and preparation plants so really haven't "sold out" for the money. I could rant on about it, or I can do this instead; shrug my shoulders and let the person who lives in a cave, dressed in skins and hunting their own foot with a flint spear throw the first stone (or spear). ONLY if you do not consume any of the products which we produce can you condemn us for providing the raw materials in the first place.

yes, but why is firetom hunting his own foot? Is he like a puppy?

I must be evil too because I have driven 2000kms this week.

LOL

Takes the power out of my "takes the high ground" speach doesn't it.

Damn inability to proof read.

If it's anything like his view on the military......

Da-doh-dee-doh-dee-doh *whistles*



Sorry, just want to see if my lightheartedness/goofy self can at all be understood when I don't talk story in person with body language and tone of voice to help with context.

@ WA: I think I got your point. But it's far too pessimistic for me. Man to be "evil by nature" and "in need of serious therapy" imho is a myth. There are certain mechanisms we all share - for sure - and a lot has to do with ego.

It's not as much trying to change anyone... it's more about changing my own approach and not compromising.

As previously stated: if one admits to be a f***up and stand to it, s/he earns a lot more of my respect (whatever that's worth to anyone) than pretending and singing lalala or playing devils advocate for the sake of it and change your stance for sociable reasons.

I'm not sure though whether America is home to "a more compassionate or enlightened environment and culture" and - to me - the Stanford and 3rd wave experiments are part of its proof. For one we should not forget that most American people have been/ are siblings of Europe... and that torture of prisoners or exploitation of power is to be observed throughout the cultures.

Many "bad" deeds have been committed with best intent - and vice versa, I completely agree with you on that one.

@ Eera: please note that this is my personal approach only and that I can accept anyone to hold a different p o view. I'm not demanding anybody to subscribe to my philosophy. I'm not trying to change anyone... I'm merely manifesting my thoughts and observations.

Yes - it goes down right to the shareholders (especially).

Yes - it goes down to the tipper truckies.

Yes - it goes down right to the consumers.

It's not that anyone of them is deemed "evil" - it's more along the lines of "staying ignorant because it is more comfortable".

If you work for a system and company and keep ignorant to its effects on nature, you're part of the problem. The more you directly profit from it, the stronger your morale needs to be.

If - to keep the analogy - a guard in a concentration camp tortures and kills people.. could he resort to the inhumane system he works for? Do you really believe that a guard would have got shot for not torturing people?

"What is the profit of man, who conquers the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul?"

You enjoy the work - fine with me. You stand to it - fine with me. You take insult in my ethics... why? Why are you trying to invalidate my approach by pointing out that I am NOT living in a cage. I'm not throwing stones at you.



How so? (Apart from the fact that no condemnation takes place) The provision of raw materials can - and should - be made safe and as clean as possible.

If a member of the military goes to a foreign country on a mission (as much or little as I may approve of it) - he might claim be doing it IN MY NAME - I can demand him not to torture people, respect civilian lives. If he's not a soldier but a murderer, I can demand him to be removed and face trial as a murderer, without taking any "high morale ground".

Can I not?

You can demand - and you should - nature to be respected, (wo)man to be respected. I can find nothing wrong with it.

Even IF you'd slap your children silly at home, you could still insist on abandoning physical torture at schools. It wouldn't make YOU very consistent but it would still serve a higher purpose.

Ugh! Look at all this fun stuff I missed with all the party nonsense!



Yet Australia is drunk on coal...hmmm

I'm not sure I can pass my guilt onto someone that works in the Nigerian oil industry because I may possibly be putting some of that oil into my truck.



A--men! Aren't we all?



I really love you EoN! Tell it just like it really is!



I believe that individuals that volunteer are trying to make an impact for the better. I have my doubts about organisations however. Every time anything happens anywhere in the world we are bombarded with relief adverts that continue long after the worst part of the hardships have eased. I could go on but I've made my point on that subject.



Also butting in: Genghis Kahn, Gandhi and Hitler would all get into heaven if they repent and accept Christ, as far as Christianity goes. I believe that good acts and a high conscionable code of ethics is the foundation for heaven in this life.



I completely follow you on this, but I think the point is no matter who you are, or where you are, you have some piece of the negligence that allows the 'evil' to succeed. Change your lifestyle in anyway you can to lessen the links in the 'food chain of evil'.(need I make the clique?)



Get a diesel car that will run on vegetable oil!



I'm certain North America is NOT home to a more compassionate or enlightened culture. The rise of 'evil' could very easily happen in North America, just as it could anywhere. As far as the 'most American people have been/ are siblings of Europe' thing, it is just fact and time proven, what happens in NA will have huge impact on the EU and vice versa. It is impossible to untangle the 2 and the semi-homogenised cultures make the differences minimal at best. If it can happen in one it can or will happen in the other.

I'm so tired I have missed the point I wanted to make because I was too busy playing catch up and putting my 2 cents in. But now that I feel all preachy and self righteously good I can sleep better knowing I "talked" about the oil spill just after flying halfway across the continent to be at a 5 hour conference then catch a flight back home directly afterwards

I would but I dont have the $$$$$




Then I guess EoN was talking about you then...

@ Firetom: I'm not saying YOUR ethics are insulting specifically, it's the (possibly) inadvertant hypocrasy as displayed by Dentrassi's hippie (which I've had too), it's Greenpeace dangling off a coal terminal trying to disrupt loading, all the while chugging around in a steel boat fuelled by hydrocarbons, it's the ignorance of the very people who consume that feel free to lecture... (not aimed at you, it's a world-wide phenomenon)

I can honestly tell you that companies I've worked for (in Australia, it's the only country I've done this line of work) make every effort to do a clean job, it's in legislation that they have to, but the companies are going above and beyond to the extent that it's costing them money to do so. It's an issue elsewhere, I ackowledge that and would not even attempt defending some of the diamond mines I've seen in Namibia where life if cheap and engineering the stope properly is expensive.

Topsoil is removed and stockpiled for eventual remediation, it's a sackable offence to drive on a topsoil stockpile. No longer can they leave gaping great gashes in the landscape; at the end of life the site has to be remediated and returned to its original condition. Tailings dams are being dug up, processed and the tailings extracted.

It's not perfect, but it is happening. There are pretty dramatic screw ups every now and again, but a lot of time and effort is put into preventing them re-occurring.

Eera, is there anything done about the immediate environmental impact done from mining. I mean its great that they are saving topsoil, but that does nothing to solve the issues of salinity that topsoil removal causes in the hundreds of KM vicinity, an impact that lasts for 100's of years.

What about the habitats that are compromised, planting even 3 new trees for every one felled (not exactly a mining things as such but Im still using it as an example) does nothing to help the local animals who rely on hollows for breeding. Something a new tree wont develop for at least 30 years if at all.

oh and firetom,

my bad for making what I wrote all seem so pessimistic, I was just giving examples of how things can go bad, I should of used some good examples, like how most good rehab centres are successful because they recognise that behaviour change cannot occur alone, there is a need to take the person away from the environment and influences.

When done in the right way, it works. people can change and do the right thing. Its just that things like attempting to only 'raise awareness' (which was my original gripe) wont do squat.

You guys confuse me in a way especially when it comes to balance. Why are you placing animal and plant life above human life? I'm not saying to place it beneath us, but not above being equal to us.

How are humans becoming masochists and taking huge sacrifices to better a forest or an animal anything other than being unbalanced and defying our nature? What next, are we going to start condemning carnivores for being carnivorous? Like if a cat doesn't eat meat they die and whenever I see a vegan try to make their cat a vegan because it's peaceful or compassionate or civilized I call it abuse, attempted murder, and I'm ready to act.

Yes, I know that sounded really off topic so I'm going to get to the point...

Without the hard working people doing their trades and taking huge risks our societies, way of life, and vital things that keep us alive like food, medicine, utilities, etc. would vanish without their work in this industry. How can anyone place the earth's crust or any other environmental issue (that is only given value at all through our perceptions BTW) above the beings that have given it it's value?

I would just like to hear how this approach #1 makes sense, #2 isn't destructive in it's own way, and how #3 it's even feasible because I'm not on board for that much change, know I wouldn't survive without such industries, and think I have several million in my school of thought in terms of such matters.

Someone enlighten me please...

can't help it but somehow someone in here sounds like fit for BP's propaganda machinery.

Greenpeace is doing one thing: raising awareness. I do a similar thing. If that gives you a sting, just don't listen and continue the same way as if nothing would be going on.

No need to get exited at all. Just them green Hippie pipe dreams, dreaming and talking of a "better world"... in the future... just like old people talk about a better place... in the past.

So, no worries - if that changes at some stage, let me know. In the meantime I continue doing things my way.

WE - true, the trees need a lot of time growing back and the habitat to restore fully takes as long... but it's a lot better than nothing, would you not agree?

You know it really doesn't matter what you do, unless you have doubts it being... the 'right' thing.

You'll figure it out by yourself I guess.

Firetom, I was just asking a question, not belittling the efforts taken that have been mentioned.



well actually, the environment has great importance other than perceptive and recreational qualities. If where viewing things from an anthropocentric world view,

removal of topsoil creates erosion problems in a 300km radius. This erosion leads to the groundwater table being closer to the surface which in turn leads to salination. SO now you have infertile land that is salty, which stops food production. salinity does not stay isolated but it creeps, effecting even greater areas.

Victoria has huge topsoil problems all because of the Gold mining activities in Bendigo in the last 2 hundred years.

In Australia salinity has a big impact on cattle farming. Cattle is one of Australia's biggest industries if it fails then there is no money for medicines or utilities.

Poor biodiversity in animal life leads to a devastating increase in destructive pest species, plants as well as animals which also impacts farms.

Strip mining, while also preventing forest fires also created erosion which can cause landslides, poor environmental strategies as well us unmaintainable water pipes led to the landslide in New South Wales which buried the town of Thredbo.

I mean I could continue on and on and on. its the self righteous attitude that humans are the ONLY important thing on this planet that has lead to most of the environmental disasters we have faced.

Not to mention as an outdoor educator my income and industry is based entirely on the environments well-being.

Wow, I'm horrible at communicating Woodland Apple!

What I mean is it putting the environment ABOVE those perceiving the essentially transient phenomena taking place around them.

I can understand the environment and human beings being treated with equal importance, I don't understand the land being above people or people above the land because it throws off a fundamental balance of hardships and general intrinsic value.

Everything you have stated I agree with 100%, but also believe that with moderation and treating the land as we should treat people makes more sense than putting a halt to all reaping of natural resources. With great risks I mean accidents can happen not only to people, but the earth equally.

Just putting everything to a halt is catastrophic to us, being glutenous and overly indulgent is bad for the land and each of those comes back to bite the perpetrator, however with the correct balance mistakes and accidents occur so an acceptance of cause and effect that lay outside the realm of probability is not only essential to pushing forward, but also to morale and the human psyche as a whole.

I hope that makes it clear, I don't think humans are top of the food chain and never have, but I also don't think a tree or water has more of a right to life. I see it all as equal and without the other essentially meaningless in the dualistic, comparative existence in which we experience.

in an answer that is more to that point then, a camp ground I go to a lot is in danger of being closed. SO that the tree's there can be protected. the reason trees get first priority is that in the past they havnt recieved any,which means everything is out of balance to begin with. In order for this area to survive it needs no human interference for at least 10 years.

There are a lot of places in the world today that the environment need to come first so that we can begin to ammend mistakes made in the past. Even to the detriment of man. your ideal balance can only work if each aspect has equal balance to begin with, and where in the world today is that?

LOL @ WA! I now want your baby.

I just noticed Petroleum Pete. Robot Chicken always makes me happy.

what your saing essentially is that many places need another chernobyl? terrible human caused accident which made the place uninhabitable for people and has now been reclaimed by nature.

hmmm maybe we should tell the americans it was natures way of saying they should all leave the souothern states

I'm not capable of doing that... however...

Woodland Apple has put it in excellent words: the scale has been tipping in our favor long time ago and it's up to us taking decisions on a daily basis to restore the balance.

If a lifestyle is predatory and likely to push our host, endangering the continuation of our species, than it is stupid.

Thus, environmental protection is rather "smart selfishness" than anything else.

No other species on this planet has ever had as many opportunities to seriously damage the ecosystem in a way we have today. The planet is fine (I stand to it). It will continue to wobble around the sun - even after we're long gone. Most likely it will continue to have 'intelligent' life on its surface - even after we're gone.

It is more along the lines of: are we happy with what we leave behind? As long as we live in ignorance it is no problem. Only as soon as we enter empathy, compassion and awareness it becomes a topic.

We're starting out as empathic beings - all of us. There is no baby I have ever seen in my entire life that is not empathic and aware (in the limits of its own realm). Only as we grow ^up^, we learn how not to be empathic, aware and compassionate anymore.

So when you're talking about "enlightenment" - which kind are you referring to? The kind of "enlightenment" that sees everything being part of a temporary "reality" (a holographic universe happening somewhere inside your skull), that detaches from all material existence - but continues to cling on ego and personal profit, desire and is closing ones self to the community? Or do you refer to the "enlightenment" that sees everything as being part of a temporary reality, detaching from all material existence - and realizes that ego is an advisor, not a master; that empathy, compassion and awareness are intelligent tools, ensuring the peaceful continuation of our species in equilibrium with our fellow beings on this planet.

I stop here, as I repeat myself from thread to thread. Bottom line is: if one feels that everything is alright the way one does it and has no incentive to change any of it - then don't. Celebrate whatever is there to celebrate and see how far one gets.

Just out of curiosity: if something changes along these lines - whatever - then let us... let me know.

The oil spill has been a good thing - it was raising awareness. Now it's time to clean up the mess and hold those responsible in order to set an example ("trial - and error"). It needs to be made clear that this path is erroneous - and made undesirable for others to pursue.

The problem is - what most of us are ready to blur out -only because it's not in the media anymore, it doesn't mean it's not happening anymore. Oil is still gushing into the ocean...

*baffled, partly disgusted, but mostly confused* This is going to be a long one since no one is reading what I say and words/intent I never made seem to be in replies (like I'm shocked? this always happens here and no where else on the internet) to me so if I am wrong correct me, if not this is my response:

Um it's in the media everyday, I was actually the last person to mention updates on the latest development! Haven't heard if the hurricane that touched part of the gulf and went into Mexico pretty far from the site has made an impact yet or not since it happened yesterday, but that's just the first storm of the season.

If everyone wants to read more into what I'm saying than I am, feel free to which is all I see above and quite frankly I'm ready for it to happen every time because no one ever understands my points and takes what I write at face value save a few wonderful souls. My only point is that us humans are at a point where we are dependent on natural resources for survival regardless of who screwed up the balance we cannot change the past and there is a time to simply accept reality and try to make the right decisions in the present since we cannot predict the future or change the past.

Does that mean I don't care? No

Does that mean I don't think there is a lesson to be learned? No

Do I think that even with the most stringent controls accidents can happen? Yes

Do people need to go camping to survive? No

Do people need food, shelter, and and ability to provide those things for themselves? Yes

Am I going to listen to the ramblings of people having a fit wanting to boycott a product they wouldn't even be arguing with me if they didn't use plenty of it? No

Am I happy with what was left behind for me? No

Did I ask to brought into this world? No

Am I going to make the most of it regardless? YES

If anyone wants to have a fit and go attack people over an accident where they are already facing bigger repercussions than public opinion I'm pretty sure, yet don't live like cave men that sounds like hypocrisy from people who want to have it both ways. Just an observation and I don't understand your purpose since if you're on a computer, you live in the modern world, you spin fire... How is the blood not on your hands as well (or should I say oil) because the ball stops no where, I'm not the one going around condemning people because I understand accidents happen and if people didn't do their jobs I would be unable to provide for my survival and am a part of the series of events.

Does that make it any less horrible? No, but I do understand reality and until I see people literally practice what they preach I will have my opinion of "Well you just can't have it both ways" because it's illogical.

Good job with the enlightenment jokes FT when I wasn't using that word in such a context, good thing I don't get offended considering my religion and it seems I'm much further along in those fundamental principles as far as understanding and practicality so I don't need you to explain it thanks. I meant explain (enlighten: to help me understand like using it in the common sense) how your over compensation would do any more than harm people in vain looking at the reality of it all with the fact that regardless everything will live and die, all species at some point go extinct, and regardless of what happens energy cannot be created or destroyed.

For people against the ego and self serving you don't seem to get that without the ego it would all be meaningless and considering energy cannot be created or destroyed how is one form of transference any better than the other? I'm not very good at not listening to reason, truth, and reality so what I want to be enlightened to is how do you think things could be made right and prove to me it isn't a detriment to quality of life, survival, and wouldn't throw every system we have into chaos plus can you get the majority of 6 billion people to conform to it to even make it "plausible". If not it's all efforts made in vain, if so is the pay off worth the sacrifice.

That's the homework assignment and if anyone can make a reasonably believable response covering all of the basis and have it iron clad backed up I will change my stance on the topic, but until anyone can come up with a decent solution which hasn't happened thus far in the human time line by people for more experienced than ourselves I don't think I'll find it on a bulletin board.

That's all I've got to say and if anyone else wants to not get the point or listen to what I'm really saying that is their right (regardless of how many words are being put in my mouth that I never thought or said). I'm not conforming to or praising ideals I know are in vain, futile, and nothing more than half thought through idealist views to fit in with any subculture of people.

Tell them to leave the least environmentally damaged states and pack into the more damaged ones?

(Runs and locks the doors to Oklahoma)



Maybe she's capable of enlightening you



Yea I still want WA's baby.



Has anyone considered that maybe this is the way things are meant to be? The only time we as a planet, species, culture, ect. really changes business as usual, is when we are faced with annihilation!

Human beings embody the planet. We are it's conscience, the talking, thinking part of it, one inseparable from the other. We evolved on a self destructive and constructive planet.

If this planet was never pressured to the point to which it could no longer support life, we would remain here forever. We may not be capable of leaving for another planet and taking the lessons learned with us yet, but we are capable of preserving the DNA of all life so that one day it can be brought back. Right now along the gulf that is what many people are doing. preserving what they can so that when the damaged is done, we can repair it.



Too right!

Unrelated, but I think we are all asking the same question. How much is too much. Will we take too much before we can find another place/way to live?

do I care you care or not? no

Was this emotional sentiment FT?

Well FT if you want to spread your views to enough people to be a drop in the bucket maybe you should about what other people think...



I'm not going to stop you from wasting your effort (and can't), it's your life and your choices, the most we can do in this world is control ourselves. Life is way better when we truly understand and accept this fact, it really is.

You want to go on and on about compassion, empathy, and awareness, then say you don't care? That's an oxymoron if it's true, the response though makes me think it isn't sincere. I care a lot and regardless of how other people take onto it, my methodology, or the side of logic I choose the explore, right or wrong, I'm not going to deny such or then I compromise my own words without help from others interpretations.

Like, wow...

ahhh.... perhaps like the Miyazaki anime 'Valley of the Winds'...

It is my belief that we humans are here on this planet to work it and tend to it. That means having wisdom guide our actions. An ethos based on the idea that we are equal to animals and plants does not equate with the use of wisdom. An ethos that says that men are so superior to the animals and plants of this world that we shouldn't care what we do with them is also not based on wisdom.

What we humans need to do is strike a balance. We should be conservationists of the natural world but we should not be afraid to use the resources of the world either.

We must condemn the irresponsible actions of BP and all companies that seek to save money by taking higher risks. However we must also enable them to utilize the resources of this world responsibly. Companies that utilize finite resources (like oil) should, and at the very least, in their own self interest of preservation strive to safely extract their products (be it oil, coal, other minerals etc...) in a way that will not waste human lives, endanger their surroundings, or waste their product.

In fact oil companies should be investing money in alternate energy methods to stretch out their 'life-span'. It would be foolish to charge ahead and tap all the natural resources and run yourself out of business.

Placing the blame for what has happened on any form of administration doesn't do us any good. Seeking criminal charges for those responsible for the spill really doesn't accomplish anything either. (Liability is another matter all together.) I feel that instead of seeking criminal actions against BP they should be forced to not only 'foot the bill' for the clean up (without the right to recover the cost by passing the buck on to the consumer) but also force them to fund research for safer rigs and alternate energy.

This will accomplish both goals of enforcing responsible use of finite resources and furthering alternative energy (which as stated before will ensure that BP and other oil companies are actually around longer and have a higher profit margin in the long run).

hey, I do.

one last question you missed.

Will I do everything in my power to limit mine and others footprint on this earth?

EoN, I do understand your point, and where you are coming from yet change does not occur through bemoaning the realities of life. and you should Never let it get in the way of a good story or internet rant.

Yet dont you want more? dont you desire a better world?

change requires vision, and a drive to exceed in the face of adversity. It also requires motion. Take a car, it cannot change direction without a bit of forward movement to begin with. I understand the hypocritical nature of most of these posts, and EoN; you are a good person and do good things, but dont you want more?

I do. I guess Im selfish this way.

@ heed: would you think that the industry has many incentives to prop up?

all: I completely agree that accidents do happen and that it will be difficult and unjust to prosecute them unless they directly violated regulations. But there still is the term of "gross negligence" - and I'd guess this happened here.

Fact of the matter is that if they were not required to have a (working) "backup plan" installed, they should be now - before resuming operations.

It is not as if these companies wouldn't have bad records already and as if seepage isn't happening elsewhere... there is necessity of 'cleaning up', preventive measures being taken and it's long overdue.

In the meantime you could install the BP oil spill plug in for Firefox here

WA: Vision for a "better future" requires realizing the present as ... not perfect. Enlightened beings perceive all present as perfect, semi-enlightened beings want to make the present become the future...

^^^
and if we are too open minded our brains will fall out.

Considering I understand that desire is the root source of suffering I honestly try to keep it check...

As much as I want to change this aspect of myself I understand wanting to is counterproductive LOL I still try to work hard on it in a progressively passive manner none the less.

Right now you do need it for survival, but do you really? I've probably changed occupations and retrained about 10 times since I started working and I'm edging up on being 29 this year, so I don't really get how not adapting is anything more than being stubborn and you know I don't mean that in a mean way. I really don't get it...

I will do anything in my power that is not a severely impeding to respect all sentient beings, but I'm not going to over throw any form of reasonable balance or bring any harm upon myself by having a zero tolerance standpoint on natural resources as they are organic just like me. No matter what we are and in what form, we are all predators and are all prey at the same time so why bring forth self imposed suffering.

Thanks for realizing my intent and all, I totally get yours as well and respect it, but at the same time I know my standards are just as difficult as the next person's to hold and have flourish. Any of my "web rants" are nothing more than my own manifestation of the angst and venting of the next guys so it's all good...

Ever think perhaps my biggest personal gripe is the imposition of unrealistic ideals getting under my skin from the media, peers, officials etc. versus the more common rants on this forum? Kinda a rant in and of itself so can't I play too?

outdoors stuff is more than just a job or habit for me. It IS who I am, not just what I do.

George Mallory answered the question, why climb everest with "because its there"

A friend of mine answered it with "because Im not all there"

When a famous climber Matt Seagal was asked why he chose death consequences routes and climbs he said "cause its more bitchin"

Those who dont do it will never understand the need and the disire from those that do.

preservation of nature and other lifeforms on this planet is not for 29 yr or 99 yr olds... it's for those people who don't even remotely have a voice yet. It's for your nephew and great grand child.

Knowing about the means of recycling and environmental protection and not applying it will lead to a dire need for serious self betrayal once you have to face discomforting questions from your daughters little toddler...