Definition of a fountain?

Alright! I've just gotten into a pretty heated poi debate with my boyfriend about what a fountain is and is not. He's learning how to spin, and I've been doing it for about three years, so obviously I can see things that he cannot, while he can see things that I could only see before this stuff became second nature to me. This is why we need an outside opinion.

Ie does a fountain like this: forward weave on one side, transitioning low to a reverse weave on the other side, then transitioning high to a windmill, then bringing it back to the original position-- a forward weave on the first side.

My fountain is a little simpler: I do a forward weave on the right side, transition low to a reverse weave on the other, then transition high to a forward weave back on the right side.

I maintain that my fountain is more fountain-y because it follows basic principles of symmetry and simplicity. For instance: When he does his fountain, there are three main parts: the forward weave, the reverse weave and the windmill. My fountain only has two parts: the forward and the reverse.

Thinking in terms of front/back, imagine spinning a normal fountain-- in the wall plane. at any given time, your poi are either in front of you or in back of you. With my fountain, the poi pass behind me on the right side, then are brought in front of me, low, as I transition. They are then brought behind me again when they are weaving in reverse on the left side. When I bring them up high to transition back to the other side, they are again in front of me. Taking into account that my arms are directing the poi in a circle, we can address four points within the circle: 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00. At 3:00 and 9:00, the poi are behind me. At 12:00 and 6:00, the poi are in front of me.

In his variation of the fountain, the poi are behind him on the right side, then brought low in front of him as he transitions to the left side, where they are again brought behind him. It's the same exact process as my fountain. however, when he brings the poi up top to transition into and out of the windmill and back into the forward weave on the one side, the poi pass behind his head (since he does a full two beats of either side of his head in the windmill).

Addressing the same 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, 9:00, we can see that 3:00 and 9:00 both have the poi behind him. however, the poi are in front of him at 6:00, and the poi are both in front and behind him at 12:00 because of the extra beat he needs to complete a windmill.

I wager that in order for a fountain to be a true fountain, it must be completely symmetrical on all sides, otherwise you are just embellishing a rather basic move. If what you are doing on the left matches exactly what you are doing on the right, then what you are doing on the bottom must match exactly what you are doing on the top. otherwise, extra beats and motions cause it to become top heavy.

Anyone have an opinion on this? We'd love to hear

Thaaaanks!

I think what you are doing is the true Fountain, but your friend is doing a Fountain as well, it's just a variant of it.

I can see myself doing both the true Fountain, and the Fountain + Windmill variant.

Just my 2 cents.

Nick Woolsey seems to be the primary source for the fountains-have-windmills perspective that I'm aware of, and it's by far the less common version. Fountains are just circly weave turns. Some fountain variations involve windmillish motions, like the standard 4bt, but that's because you're technically doing a bth weave turn with that one. I tend to count a windmill as a break in a standard 6bt fountain.

I believe what he is doing is the fountain and what you are doing is what Nick Woolsey calls the 4x4 Fountain. I like the 4x4 better. There is also the antispin and antispin 4x4 fountains. Also the I think you would call the archer fountain and antispin as well.

well it sounds to me like he is doing part of a variant of the fountain that i like but leaving out the watermill which is just a same direction hip reel

The poi fountain is different from the original club fountain in any case (this has come up before actually). I would say that for poi, most people would call reverse 3bt - windmill - forward 3bt - low turn - reverse 3bt a fountain.

That seems to be the rarer version, ime. Most people I know would call it a fountain with a windmill. But this is one of those things for which a terminology schism has cropped up, so the usage of the term is unclear and the OP's argument was doomed to end in disaster

'Fountain' is a family of moves, not just one.

There are many variations (not just the ones mentioned) that all all equally acceptable under the name.

So, technically, both of you are correct.

The names of poi tricks / moves came about in such a haphazard way that essentially what you have are a series of concepts that interlink to form descriptions of body and poi movements. There is very often more than one way to describe the same movement and both can be correct. In the same way, there are many terms that describe vastly different movements.

That reminds me of a lot of other things, but yeah there is no "true fountain." There is also buzzsaw fountains if you want to add that up there.

If I remember right fountains are compound circles where, unlike flowers, the hands are together.

In terms of settling the arguement, I'd say you're doing a "true" fountain (i.e. no windmill), your bloke is doing a variant.

But equally, "fountain" is generally a type of move which can be done in various ways; buzzsaw, anti-spin, butterfly etc.